1

(32 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

Wally_H wrote:
sk00gle wrote:

I'd like to point out that the poll at the top of this thread is somewhat misleading. In order to make an informed vote, the potential voter needs a bit more context than just the prompt provided. In my case, I need to know the specific circumstances of the lost mail. Granted, this thread came to be in light of a BTR involving our colleague Wally; that having been said, the prompt is phrased too generally and does not reflect the circumstances of that BTR.

The pool is general not specific to my trade

I think I did the poll wrong and think it should be done site wide for all people to see and have a chance to offer an opinion.

2

(32 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

On 10/22 I got home and saw tracking said delivered so I went to our locked mailbox and pulled out all the mail. After I sorted the mail ( not it, not it, bill, bill, garbage... ) I realized there was no package delivered as it said on the USPS site. I then informed sentiinex I didn't get it and that I did get mail. sentiinex thought maybe he had wrote the address wrong ( later I confirmed via the Postmaster looking a photo of the package that he had written it correctly ).
Over the next 2 days after work each day I checked the apartment office, the post office, and talked to the postmaster by phone then informed sentiinex of all of this. I was still hoping that it would show up, and the Postmaster had the letter carrier look for it but couldn't find it. I've even knocked on my neighbors doors asking if they received it. The apartments I live in have something like 200 units, each building  is split into 12 units and each staircase has 6 each. The mailboxes are setup the same way. I live on the third floor in #154, my downstairs neighbor is in #145... guess where I think it went. I have a letter from the Postmaster that says "As the item is lost in the mail..." sounds like she has no doubt it didn't make it to me. I asked if the tracking could reflect this, because it says Delivered, but she said they have no way to undo that. I have tried to contact USPS to open a claim, but no insurance means no claim. User bactgudz suggested opening an investigation, on Nov. 19th sentiinex said "ive been instructed to cancel this trade and leave negative feedback. ill also open a case with usps and give you a case number once they provide me with that"

So the package was delivered, but not to me.
#145 claims she never got it either but I don't know.
I've been hoping it would get sent back to sentiinex marked "return to sender" by whomever has it, but its been over a month now.

I never doubted sentiinex sent it
I never accused him of any wrong doing and even helped him prove he wrote the address correctly
I never asked for my card back I only want what was coming to me
I never had a problem with the price drop in the cards, it was never a factor, the moment the deal was made I told him he was getting the better end of the deal
I never got aggressive or argumentative with sentiinex in our trade chat, I remained patient and hopeful things would work out in the end

I have done nothing wrong in this trade, my cards were sent out and received perfectly
I have been patient, both in waiting for the package and communicating with sentiinex
I have been given negative feedback for disagreeing with Sebi on how the rules are "meant it to mean" and for disagreeing with Sebi on 2 past issues NOT for any action or inaction related to the trade itself.
I have had cards I sent lost in the mail before, but I just resent the cards and all ended well.
I have had cards sent to me lost in the mail before, but I let it go and didn't make the sender resend cards even though they offered to and all ended well

I hope that answers most of the questions, I probably missed some and or forgot to write something I need sleep

so I'll hit Submit reply and that will be the cue jassi007 to have something interesting to say interlaced with insults and name calling. So far according to jassi007 I'm rude, combative, a toddler, a jerk and my favorite "the douche", all warranted if you only look at the Giant_Glass_Box issue... I don't know what the hell happened there I was obviously out of my mind.

I have a lot of trade partners that could tell you different, but I'm not worried about it.

jassi007  you will trade with me someday

3

(32 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

sk00gle wrote:

I'd like to point out that the poll at the top of this thread is somewhat misleading. In order to make an informed vote, the potential voter needs a bit more context than just the prompt provided. In my case, I need to know the specific circumstances of the lost mail. Granted, this thread came to be in light of a BTR involving our colleague Wally; that having been said, the prompt is phrased too generally and does not reflect the circumstances of that BTR.

The pool is general not specific to my trade

4

(32 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

bactgudz wrote:
Wally_H wrote:

I jump through all the hopes of creating an account on USPS only to find out I can't fill a claim on a package that was sent domestically without insurance...

"The tracking number is not eligible for filing a claim because insurance was not available or purchased for this article."

No , you only file a claim for insurance...you want an investigation, not a claim.  You need to call and request for an investigation for this unlocated package and ask for them to provide you with a case number.  Be insistent with what you want, don't just roll over when phone support people try to blow you off.

Ok thank you,  I'll try to do that tomorrow.

5

(32 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

I jump through all the hopes of creating an account on USPS only to find out I can't fill a claim on a package that was sent domestically without insurance...

"The tracking number is not eligible for filing a claim because insurance was not available or purchased for this article."

6

(32 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

I called 1-800-ask-usps and after waiting for 27mins I talked to someone and they told me to fill a claim online...

7

(32 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

jassi007 wrote:

Deckbox has been consistent with their judgements that if the sender uses tracking, and the post office fails to deliver, the sender has proved he sent the item.

It is clear to me by reading the rules that if the sender is responsible if they didn't use tracking, then the other side of that is obviously the sender isn't responsible if they did use tracking. If the package was in the post office's hands and they said they put it in your mailbox but didn't, it is not the senders fault. It is the post offices. The fact that they scanned your package and you can see a package was sent to you is the proof the sender can provide.

Wally, I read all the BTR's. Partially to know who to avoid trading with, partially for entertainment value (I rubber neck, sue me) You have had other BTR's where you were aggressive.

I think the rules are clear. The sender isn't responsible when the post office loses the package if they can prove that is what happened. They can prove that, by providing tracking, and the tracking shows the post office was moving the package. A person could buy a shipping label with tracking and not mail it, but it shows that. Once the post office takes the package and starts the process of delivering it, the sender has (assuming they wrote the correct address and packaged it well) done 100% of what they should to get you your package. If it doesn't get to you, it isn't their fault. It is the post office's.

You are looking for some "legal" loophole in the wording of the rules vs. the wording in the guidelines. It isn't going to work because Sebi has ruled on other BTR's in the past the same way, he is being consistent and ruling the same way each time. He intends for senders to not be held responsible when they use tracking and it shows the post office delivered.  The obvious reason is because you generally can't prove you didn't get it. In your case you can get the post master to say you didn't, which is great. It still isn't the senders fault.

I've had 4 trades with lost mail. Two where my package did not arrive, two where their package did not arrive. I also purchased a card from another site that didn't arrive for 3 months. I got a package on November 8th that was post marked August 2nd. The post office screws up sometimes.

You deserve a negative because whenever something goes wrong in your trade you never let it go. You have been involved in two other BTR's and you always argue with the mods about the outcome. I'm fairly sure that is why your getting a negative, because it is clear that if anything should go wrong with the trade you are going to demand the other party be 100% responsible whether or not they actually are. You are unreasonable. I have had you on my do not trade with list for a while.

I don't think the btr on this should be closed yet because the post office has yet to have input. The postmaster said I could come in tomorrow and she would sign off on a statement proving non-delivery.
With that being said I also feel strange about the 163 trades I have under my belt here already. thinking back at all the time I wasted wondering if the package was going to make there or not, as long as I had tracking it didn't seem to matter... I guess if the tracking on this trade still read out for delivery things would be different.

As for past btrs, dude first of all one thing has nothing to do with the other.
1 guy sent me a damaged card marked NM and I felt cheated. Lost that btr
1 guy backed out after addresses exchanged. Lost that btr
This guy sent his cards with tracking... I'm not upset with him, I have stated if I was him I would feel the same as he does.

I think the negative feedback is more to do with the past than the present, that's not cool that a mod with a grudge.

8

(32 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

bactgudz wrote:

The mods are making it clear that being marked as delivered is sufficient proof of delivery as far as the onus on the sender is concerned.  I do not view this as the mods "changing" the rules, but rather issuing a clarification of the correct interpretation of the rules.

Is that proof infallible, no...it does happen on occasion that usps makes a mistake and incorrectly scans as delivered; but it certainly establishes a reasonable level of proof that the sender cannot manipulate...only the buyer or usps could be in the wrong if the package is marked as delivered and the sender claims it hasn't arrived.

As an additional note, I have had this happen before...but the package (or insurance) has been recovered in each case by opening a case with usps.  I do believe that a very reasonable policy would be as follows (I do agree that it could be communicated more clearly through rewording in the rules):
a) Tracking indicating that a package has been delivered is sufficient for the burden on the sender with the following 2 caveats:
b) If the receiver claims the package did not arrive, the sender must open a formal case with usps (by calling 800-ask-usps) and provide a case number to the receiver.  Upon doing so the sender has completed all necessary obligations.
c) Both parties may additionally agree before the trades are sent that signature confirmation and/or insurance must be purchased.  If such agreements are noted in the trade chat, a sender must furnish proof of purchase for these services as well as a signature copy (if sig conf) upon request in addition to b)

In specific note on your trade, I don't understand why neither of you have obtained a formal investigation and corresponding case number through usps's national customer service...talking to your local po is NOT the same thing.  If what you are saying is true, and your mailman claims to you he did not deliver it, usps will formally investigate and likely find the package.

This is the first time I've made a fuss over a lost package and didn't realize there was a national customer service, hit that up tomorrow

9

(32 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

When a good trade gets lost in the mail and a site mod doesn't uphold the rules... but instead says they will be rephrased.

the trade https://deckbox.org/trades/262049
the BTR https://deckbox.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=23749
the rules http://deckbox.org/help/trade_rules
the guidelines http://deckbox.org/help/trade_guidelines

In this trade both parties have well over 100+ trades each, both with 100% feedback, both used tracking and one made it to the destination fine, but the other although tracking says delivered it was lost by the postal carrier. The Postmaster of the local Post Office can back this up and is willing to verify in writing the package didn't make it to the destination. The phone number for the Postmaster has also been provided, and the mailbox is a locked mailbox.

After waiting over 3 weeks to see if the package would show up at either end the BRT was opened.

Then things went from casual communication to distrust on the senders part, being on the receiving end I can still understand and relate to the sender and would most likely feel the same way. Things started getting worse when the conversation turned to proof of sending ( tracking ) vs. proof of delivery ( delivery conformation )
but we'll get back to that in a minute.

Then Sebi got involved and thats when it hit the fan.

Sebi says "When tracking is purchased, the receiver gets the loss for lost mail. The sender has done all he can. Closing this."
              "I can try to rephrase the rules if this is confusing there of course."

now thats when I get upset because the site rules / guidelines paint a different picture.

under the Deckbox Trading Rules it says the sender is responsible if they didn't use tracking ( which he did use tracking ) but also says if they don't have proof of delivery they have to resend or make restitution. ( tracking says Delivered, but the Postmaster says NOT Delivered )

2.2. Sending cards. The sender is responsible for getting the cards to the destination. He will be held accountable for items lost in the mail if a form of tracking was not used; proof of sending is not sufficient.
If you as a sender do not have proof of delivery, resend your part of the deal, make monetary restitution or return the cards you received. Resending cards should always use a form of tracking, to avoid further disputes.

and the Trading guidelines and FAQ clearly says the sender is responsible for proving arrival at the destination. If the tracking saying "Delivered" is enough to prove arrival then the Postmaster saying "Not Delivered" should then be proof enough that it wasn't. But if thats not enough it goes on to talk about if the mailman loses the package you the sender will not be reimbursed

Transactions
( parts removed feel free to read whole thing, use link above )
Use delivery confirmation, tracking and insurance for sending cards. As the rules state, you are responsible for proving you send the cards and for their arrival at the destination. If you are not insured, any problem with the post will have to be covered by youself ( that's the sender their referring to ). ( and yes it says "youself"
Use the trade chat. In case of trade disputes, it will be the first thing that moderators will check.
If it is too good to be true, it probably is.
Keep your PM’s, emails, receipts and tracking information. All of these may help the staff investigate potential rippers, so if you can keep them with conveniently it is advised.
!! Regarding tracking – this is the de facto method of ‘protection’ in online trading but it is worth noting that USPS is not responsible for lost packages even if you have tracking on it. To be perfectly clear, if you hand it to a mailman and he loses it on accident, you will not be reimbursed. ( you being the sender ) If they deliver to the destination and a neighborhood kid steals the mail, you will not be reimbursed. These are actual, not hypothetical occurrences. As such, if you are engaged in a high-value transaction, it may behoove you to utilize registered mail (which includes some insurance) or adding insurance to the package so that you are fully covered.

but none of that matters because Semi says so without even asking for conformation from the Postmaster just because the USPS tracking says delivered.

Sebi says "I wrote the rules page, and I am telling you what I mean by them, and what has been applied here for years now. Rule number 2.2 from this page explains the current situation http://deckbox.org/help/trade_rules"
              "I meant it to mean that if tracking is used, the sender is not accountable. If that is not understandable, I can rephrase it, as I said. But that is what the rule means, I wrote it, and that is what I meant by it. I am not changing anything as you say, and I do not want you to lose value in this. But it is not fair to the sender that he loses it either. Please understand this."

Then why did Sebi close the BTR if delivery is in question and an authority on the matter ( Postmaster ) has yet to be asked by the sender or site mods if this is true... is Sebi calling me a liar?

503-570-5703 Wilsonville Oregon Postmasters phone number, she is well aware of this whole situation and is willing to go on the record saying it never got delivered... but thats being ignored.

then...
Sebi says "I am really not sure why you see me as your enemy here...  I am just trying to create a fair trading environment for everyone.
Please put yourself in the other person's shoes. If you send your part with tracking, packaging everything perfectly, and something happens during transport or at the other end, would you like to be the losing side?
I know it is not nice when mail is lost, and I am honestly sorry for your loss, but throwing it on the other person in the trade does not help anything."

It now seems that Sebi is taking what I'm saying personally and thinks that I feel he is my enemy... why?
Put yourself in another persons shoes... what if you are at a restaurant and the chef sends your food out but the waiter drops it on the way, are you out your investment in the meal and you take the lose, or does the chef resend your food out with apologies and the restaurant takes the lose?

Sebi says "I feel enough has been posted on this subject, and I have honestly tried to explain and discuss this trade and situation. Your handling of this dispute seems to continue to be aggressive and inflexible, and the conversation is going nowhere.

               sentiinex, please leave negative feedback for this trade.

               "We can discuss the rule of who is responsible when tracking is used in the SIte Feedback forum, feel free to open a topic, we can discuss and see if the community would see any merit in changing that. As it stands now though, when mail is lost and tracking is purchased, the receiver loses value."

Of course I'm aggressively defending my point and the rules as I read them because the rules don't read the way he "meant them to mean" and the way he meant them to me is absurd if you take into account the POSTMASTER.

Negative feedback...

Why?

I sent my side of the trade with tracking the same time he did
He got my card and is happy with it, I got nothing and can prove it with the help of the Postmaster
I argued my side of the conversation vigorously because I feel the website clearly backs my position

sentiinex never asked to leave negative feedback
Sebi never asked if sentiinex wanted to leave negative feedback
Sebi ASKED sentiinex to please leave negative feedback for this trade

Why?

So what do you think everyone?

I have:                                                                            I need:
2 x Linvala, Keeper of Silenceand 
                        and                                                         3 x Damnation
2 x Avacyn, Angel of Hope
I'm trading for a friend so that's what he gave me and that's what he wants so I can't split them up.

I have:                                                                            I need:
2 x Linvala, Keeper of Silenceand 
                        and                                                         3 x Damnation
2 x Avacyn, Angel of Hope

I'm trading for a friend so that's what he gave me and that's what he wants so I can't split them up.

I have 2 Stormbreath Dragons for trade and I'm looking for 3 Thoughtseize (Theros)

Nighthawk wrote:

Stuff happens, if nobody is out anything tangible I definitely don't think negative feedback is warranted.  GGB definitely should have made clear up front his shipping delay, though.

Personally, I know we've done some trades wally so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  If we had never traded before though there is no way I would consider doing a trade with someone that immediately starts lawyering and demanding that I send them cards, regardless of what the site rules say.

Nighthawk is a great example of what I was talking about, he needed to wait to ship and said so before we confirmed the trade

Nighthawk    /works for me, next time I can ship is 7/12    05 Jul
Wally_H    no problem, in no hurry    05 Jul

Giant_Glass_Box already dropped 1 trade while we were negotiating this was the second attempt to work something out with him, but I never demanded that anyone send me cards, as part of the compensatory trade negotiations (trade attempt 3) I asked if he had ideas, he said black cats, I said gaze of granite... he walked away.

Kizudarake wrote:

You do realize that all you are actually doing with this crusade is making people feel like they don't want to trade with you, right? I consider it to be bullying behavior, and the digital equivalent of flipping a table after losing a game.

So you feel that someone that wants to stick to the rules is someone you would NOT want to trade with? right?
And you feel that I'm being a bully because I want Giant_Glass_Box to be held to the same rules the rest of us are? right?
"the digital equivalent..." right

I have 13 active trades 5 opened after all this started
I have 84 feedback 100% positive
I think I'm doing fine.

Some trades happen some don't, its all good and there will always be another opportunity to make a trade.
I'm just trying to make it safe for folks like you in case you decide to make your first trade someday.

Kizudarake wrote:

It looks like he was willing to trade, until you started making unreasonable(to him, not you) demands--you were pushing him to send out the cards on your schedule, not his. If you needed the cards immediately, then you should have specified that prior to confirming the trade. It's reasonable to assume that it might take someone a few days to dig out a few cards and get to a post office; the guy might have to ride a bus or two to get to a post office that he can ship his cards out of, or might need to get shipping materials.

If he needed to wait a week to send out cards he should have said so before confirming the trade. "Hey by the way I'm busy do you mind if I wait until next week to send the cards?"
I never demanded or pushed him to send the cards, " tomorrow or the next day ok, but I wish you would have said something about sending next week before confirming the trade" was referring to him telling me he was going to wait until next week to send. I was saying that if he needed to wait until tomorrow or the next day ok but next week I wish he had said something before. Thats it, no demands or pushing.

Kizudarake wrote:

Don't continue to be unreasonable over this.

What exactly is it thats unreasonable?
For me to expect people to send there side of a trade in a timely manner or at least inform the other party before hand?
For me to expect people to follow thru with trades that are confirmed (to the point that addresses are exchanged)?
For me to expect people to follow the rules of the site (even though I didn't make the rules or have any input in them)?
or is it that I don't want Giant_Glass_Box to pull these shenanigans on anyone else in the future without the warning that comes with negative feedback?

Thanks for your input, this may help others to understand the facts, clearly there is some room for confusion.

elpablo wrote:

BUT, you never tried to make a compensatory _trade_ with him.  You demanded a one sided trade of extremely small value, less than a dollar.

I did try to have a compensatory trade with him he offered me a few .15 cards I countered with a .97 cent card he refused to negotiate further.

elpablo wrote:

You bashed him over the head with rules immediately.

Giant_Glass_Box    Will do. It might be next week before I send. Crazy busy right now.    17 Jul
Wally_H    ouch, next week...    17:13
Wally_H    tomorrow or the next day ok, but I wish you would have said something about sending next week before confirming the trade.    17:16
Giant_Glass_Box    No worries. I don't need them that bad. Sorry to waste your time.    22:08
Wally_H    the trade rules say that your not allowed to cancel the trade after you confirmed your address    01:41

He waited until after the trade was confirmed to inform me he was going to send next week
I said I wished he had said that before confirming the trade
5 hours later he canceled the trade
3.5 hours after he canceled the trade I stated the site rule

elpablo wrote:

If you were depending on cards from Glass to make your other trades maybe you shouldn't trade with cards you don't have in the future.  Patience is a virtue they say. If you would have just waited to get the cards from glass before committing other trades then maybe you wouldn't be so butt-hurt right now.  He apologized for not being able to get them out in time.  He's obviously either never traded or not been on here very long and some understanding for the rules should be given.

"I had offers out to other traders and dropped all of those because that trade had been accepted." (Multiple trades for the VoR, but closed them because this trade moved forward)

I never said I was waiting for the cards from him to trade to someone else, I said I had other trades open for the Voice of Resurgence(s) and I closed all those "offers" because the trade with Giant_Glass_Box was going forward. VoR at the time of the trade were sitting @ $46.6, then after the canceled trade I had to start shopping other offers, but by then the VoR value had dropped to $45.8 so for the 2 cards I was losing $1.6 of value to the new offers.

elpablo wrote:

So in Glasses case, I think neutral feed back is appropriate, and wally should try to be more upfront and open with what he's going to do with the cards before he confirms _his_ address, especially with a new guy.

Giant_Glass_Box should have started before the trade was confirmed that he would need to wait a week to ship
I never had any other trades for cards I was to receive from Giant_Glass_Box
Giant_Glass_Box canceled a confirmed trade and then refused to negotiate a compensatory trade

Thanks for your input, this may help others to understand the facts, clearly there is some room for confusion.

I have the email proving he confirmed his mailing address before he canceled the trade

More than time was lost in this case. The cards we were trading have lost value, other trades could have happened at higher value if this trade had not been accepted and addresses confirmed

The site rules specifically state this is not alowed
2.1 After the trade is accepted and addresses exchanged, there is no backing out. The transaction is considered confirmed.

Rule 3.3 states Negative feedback will generally be approved for the following reasons:
Backing out of a confirmed trade and refusing to renegotiate a compensatory trade

By telling me I can not leave negative feedback for someone who has clearly broke the rules your giving him and anyone else that does it permission to do so.

If you have a trade proposed and accepted then canceled why can't you leave negative feedback? 

2. Trade negotiation

2.1 After the trade is accepted and addresses exchanged, there is no backing out. The transaction is considered confirmed. If a user needs to back out because he cannot complete (for objective reasons, like missing cards) the trade, he must be willing to negotiate a compensatory trade with the other party.

I feel the rules should not include the "addresses exchanged"

2.1 (revised) After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out. The transaction is considered confirmed. If a user needs to back out because he cannot complete (for objective reasons, like missing cards) the trade, he must be willing to negotiate a compensatory trade with the other party.

I'm looking to trade the foreign versions for English versions

4    Chinese    Austere Command   
4    Chinese    Beastmaster Ascension
4    Chinese    Blade of the Bloodchief
4    Chinese    Clone                                
8    Chinese    Crypt of Agadeem                
3    Chinese    Djinn of Wishes                   
3    Chinese    Eternity Vessel       
1    Chinese    Galvanic Alchemist                
4    Chinese    Gilder Bairn   
4    Chinese    Grappling Hook                 
4    Chinese    Lich Lord of Unx     
4    Chinese    Lightwielder Paladin
4    Chinese    Necromancer's Covenant
8    Chinese    Nightmare
4    Chinese    Obsidian Fireheart
1    Chinese    Oracle of Mul Daya
4    Chinese    Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4    Chinese    Punishing Fire
4    Chinese    Pyromancer Ascension
8    Chinese    Rampaging Baloths
8    Chinese    Relentless Rats
3    Chinese    Rite of Replication
4    Chinese    Roil Elemental
4    Chinese    Royal Assassin
4    Chinese    Sadistic Sacrament
4    Chinese    Savor the Moment
4    Chinese    Shepherd of the Lost
4    Chinese    Sovereigns of Lost Alara
4    Chinese    Traumatize
1    Chinese    Triumph of Ferocity
4    Chinese    Turntimber Ranger
4    Chinese    Twincast                                     
8    Chinese    Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle   
4    Chinese    Vampire Hexmage   

1    Italian      FOIL Zektar Shrine Expedition    
             
1    Japanese  FOIL Angelic Armaments                     
1    Japanese  Appetite for Brains                
1    Japanese  Captain of the Watch             
1    Japanese  FOIL Death Wind                                                  
   
               
1    Korean     Haunted Guardian    
1    Korean     Zealous Conscripts

4    Russian    Crumbling Necropolis              
1    Russian    Garruk Wildspeaker                
1    Russian    Grixis Charm
1    Russian    Judge of Currents                        
3    Russian    Obelisk of Esper                     
2    Russian    Obelisk of Grixis                   
2    Russian    Preeminent Captain                
1    Russian    Punish Ignorance                  
1    Russian    Sedraxis Specter

21

(8 replies, posted in Reddit MTG Trades)

I would like to trade for your whole collection