When a good trade gets lost in the mail and a site mod doesn't uphold the rules... but instead says they will be rephrased.
the trade https://deckbox.org/trades/262049
the BTR https://deckbox.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=23749
the rules http://deckbox.org/help/trade_rules
the guidelines http://deckbox.org/help/trade_guidelines
In this trade both parties have well over 100+ trades each, both with 100% feedback, both used tracking and one made it to the destination fine, but the other although tracking says delivered it was lost by the postal carrier. The Postmaster of the local Post Office can back this up and is willing to verify in writing the package didn't make it to the destination. The phone number for the Postmaster has also been provided, and the mailbox is a locked mailbox.
After waiting over 3 weeks to see if the package would show up at either end the BRT was opened.
Then things went from casual communication to distrust on the senders part, being on the receiving end I can still understand and relate to the sender and would most likely feel the same way. Things started getting worse when the conversation turned to proof of sending ( tracking ) vs. proof of delivery ( delivery conformation )
but we'll get back to that in a minute.
Then Sebi got involved and thats when it hit the fan.
Sebi says "When tracking is purchased, the receiver gets the loss for lost mail. The sender has done all he can. Closing this."
"I can try to rephrase the rules if this is confusing there of course."
now thats when I get upset because the site rules / guidelines paint a different picture.
under the Deckbox Trading Rules it says the sender is responsible if they didn't use tracking ( which he did use tracking ) but also says if they don't have proof of delivery they have to resend or make restitution. ( tracking says Delivered, but the Postmaster says NOT Delivered )
2.2. Sending cards. The sender is responsible for getting the cards to the destination. He will be held accountable for items lost in the mail if a form of tracking was not used; proof of sending is not sufficient.
If you as a sender do not have proof of delivery, resend your part of the deal, make monetary restitution or return the cards you received. Resending cards should always use a form of tracking, to avoid further disputes.
and the Trading guidelines and FAQ clearly says the sender is responsible for proving arrival at the destination. If the tracking saying "Delivered" is enough to prove arrival then the Postmaster saying "Not Delivered" should then be proof enough that it wasn't. But if thats not enough it goes on to talk about if the mailman loses the package you the sender will not be reimbursed
Transactions
( parts removed feel free to read whole thing, use link above )
Use delivery confirmation, tracking and insurance for sending cards. As the rules state, you are responsible for proving you send the cards and for their arrival at the destination. If you are not insured, any problem with the post will have to be covered by youself ( that's the sender their referring to ). ( and yes it says "youself"
Use the trade chat. In case of trade disputes, it will be the first thing that moderators will check.
If it is too good to be true, it probably is.
Keep your PM’s, emails, receipts and tracking information. All of these may help the staff investigate potential rippers, so if you can keep them with conveniently it is advised.
!! Regarding tracking – this is the de facto method of ‘protection’ in online trading but it is worth noting that USPS is not responsible for lost packages even if you have tracking on it. To be perfectly clear, if you hand it to a mailman and he loses it on accident, you will not be reimbursed. ( you being the sender ) If they deliver to the destination and a neighborhood kid steals the mail, you will not be reimbursed. These are actual, not hypothetical occurrences. As such, if you are engaged in a high-value transaction, it may behoove you to utilize registered mail (which includes some insurance) or adding insurance to the package so that you are fully covered.
but none of that matters because Semi says so without even asking for conformation from the Postmaster just because the USPS tracking says delivered.
Sebi says "I wrote the rules page, and I am telling you what I mean by them, and what has been applied here for years now. Rule number 2.2 from this page explains the current situation http://deckbox.org/help/trade_rules"
"I meant it to mean that if tracking is used, the sender is not accountable. If that is not understandable, I can rephrase it, as I said. But that is what the rule means, I wrote it, and that is what I meant by it. I am not changing anything as you say, and I do not want you to lose value in this. But it is not fair to the sender that he loses it either. Please understand this."
Then why did Sebi close the BTR if delivery is in question and an authority on the matter ( Postmaster ) has yet to be asked by the sender or site mods if this is true... is Sebi calling me a liar?
503-570-5703 Wilsonville Oregon Postmasters phone number, she is well aware of this whole situation and is willing to go on the record saying it never got delivered... but thats being ignored.
then...
Sebi says "I am really not sure why you see me as your enemy here... I am just trying to create a fair trading environment for everyone.
Please put yourself in the other person's shoes. If you send your part with tracking, packaging everything perfectly, and something happens during transport or at the other end, would you like to be the losing side?
I know it is not nice when mail is lost, and I am honestly sorry for your loss, but throwing it on the other person in the trade does not help anything."
It now seems that Sebi is taking what I'm saying personally and thinks that I feel he is my enemy... why?
Put yourself in another persons shoes... what if you are at a restaurant and the chef sends your food out but the waiter drops it on the way, are you out your investment in the meal and you take the lose, or does the chef resend your food out with apologies and the restaurant takes the lose?
Sebi says "I feel enough has been posted on this subject, and I have honestly tried to explain and discuss this trade and situation. Your handling of this dispute seems to continue to be aggressive and inflexible, and the conversation is going nowhere.
sentiinex, please leave negative feedback for this trade.
"We can discuss the rule of who is responsible when tracking is used in the SIte Feedback forum, feel free to open a topic, we can discuss and see if the community would see any merit in changing that. As it stands now though, when mail is lost and tracking is purchased, the receiver loses value."
Of course I'm aggressively defending my point and the rules as I read them because the rules don't read the way he "meant them to mean" and the way he meant them to me is absurd if you take into account the POSTMASTER.
Negative feedback...
Why?
I sent my side of the trade with tracking the same time he did
He got my card and is happy with it, I got nothing and can prove it with the help of the Postmaster
I argued my side of the conversation vigorously because I feel the website clearly backs my position
sentiinex never asked to leave negative feedback
Sebi never asked if sentiinex wanted to leave negative feedback
Sebi ASKED sentiinex to please leave negative feedback for this trade
Why?
So what do you think everyone?