I recently had a bad trading experience on this website, and it made me start thinking about these questions. I thought I would share my thoughts and inquiries. Thanks!

My experience, in its very nature, is anecdotal. In that experience, I have noticed that my worst trade experiences (deckbox or motl) seem to come from traders with a large number of refs (usually over 100). I rarely have a problem with a trader with low refs, and if I do, it is usually minor and there is no trouble resolving it. As traders, do we become more arrogant and pay less attention to what we are mailing out the more we do it? Do we become uncaring impersonal machines? What are your thoughts?

Perhaps a better rating system would help us identify and curb unacceptable trading behaviour:

Card Condition: Unacceptable, Acceptable, As Expected, Better than Expected
Communication: Poor, Acceptable, Good, Extraordinary
Shipping: Slow, Acceptable, As Expected, Prompt
In the end, what I received was: Not what was agreed, Acceptable, What was Agreed, Better than what was agreed

Regards,

Jesse

See I'm the opposite. I've only had issues with people 15 feedback or less.

I can certainly see someone with only a few trades being very careful with what cards they send, how they send them, and trying very much to make sure that the trades go down smoothly as possible. And then someone with an established reputation not sweating the details nearly so much.

When I first came to this site, card condition was not an attribute of the card you could change, so everyone either clarified when they were trading, or just assumed everything was "mint enough". Now people seem to think is a couple of pixels in a tiny little star is enough of a warning to their trade partners that they need not mention that their dog ate their mox pearl and what they are sending is actually what they managed to scrape off the roof of his mouth and flatten into the approximation of a magic card. (Purely fictional story) And next day shipping is in a similar vein. Many people that trade on here have jobs (big boy jobs or not), classes, no printers etc. If me not sending the next day is a deal breaker, please let me know so that I can decide if that is possible. I work from 7am until 2pm. Then have classes immediately following that, if I have to choose between food and shipping your magic cards in time for FNM, I will choose survival.

I think the biggest thing here is communication. I think if timing or condition is urgently important to you, then you should mention it and you trade partner should do his best to oblige. I don't think you will experience too many cases of people with 100+ trades blatantly LYING to you in order to make a few bucks.

crashenx wrote:I recently had a bad trading experience on this website, and it made me start thinking about these questions. I thought I would share my thoughts and inquiries. Thanks!

My experience, in its very nature, is anecdotal. In that experience, I have noticed that my worst trade experiences (deckbox or motl) seem to come from traders with a large number of refs (usually over 100). I rarely have a problem with a trader with low refs, and if I do, it is usually minor and there is no trouble resolving it. As traders, do we become more arrogant and pay less attention to what we are mailing out the more we do it? Do we become uncaring impersonal machines? What are your thoughts?

Perhaps a better rating system would help us identify and curb unacceptable trading behaviour:

Card Condition: Unacceptable, Acceptable, As Expected, Better than Expected
Communication: Poor, Acceptable, Good, Extraordinary
Shipping: Slow, Acceptable, As Expected, Prompt
In the end, what I received was: Not what was agreed, Acceptable, What was Agreed, Better than what was agreed

Regards,

Jesse

Anecdotal evidence. When ebay started putting in a more detailed feedback system where you rated 1-5 stars in 4 categories is when I started leaving less feedback/just marking all 5's or 1's. I'm not sure people really will take the time to be more detailed. It is a good idea but I think in practice it wouldn't really get the desired results.

Also I think they should consider changing the card condition marker. The star that has gradients is honestly really hard to tell if they mark it from mint to played at a glance. Go try it. You really have to mouse over it to get the pop up to read it. I think it should go like Gold, silver, bronze or something. It needs to change colors not just gradients so at a glance it is obvious if they marked it as mint, sp, played, etc.

UnstableFlux wrote:See I'm the opposite. I've only had issues with people 15 feedback or less.

As Unstable has said, my bad experiences come from people with relatively low feedback.

Until recently, sub 30's was fairly common to have minor issues. I've had a few people try to rip on here, but were unable to do so since I don't do paypal gifts. Invoices are much more contestable and enforceable. Paypal will absolutely remove money from someone's account if they renegade on an invoice.

As for difficulty trading, it's been my experience that trades which involve insulting downtrade offers tend to have bumps. Usually it's some new(ish) person trying to hustle their standard / reprint things for non-print things.

Im in the same boat as Unstable and even then havent had any major issues with cards Im getting. Im pretty much expect cards I get from people on here (or else where) to have some play bc I know they arent a store and I really cant hold them to same standard as a business especially when I can't physically see the cards and have to take their word for it.

As it stands right now, I think the rating system is a HUGE upgrade from what it used to be when they updated the site. To be honest even when I go to eBay, who pretty much uses the same rating system, and I look a person's feedback, I really only look for what was said in the negative ones and the reasoning for it, which is what the rating system already does here.

I think communication and attention to detail has to do with the person.

I personally will fill your chat window if you show any interest in talking. I love the idea of haggling and trading, I would rather help someone get what they need instead of just buying (though I do that as well when necessary) I enjoy the personal interactions with folk who express their interest in certain things.

If I mess up a trade I make sure you end up with something extra because that was a loss of time as well as card mix up or loss. I have never had a trade end with hard feelings due to this attempt to always set things straight. On the other hand you have people who will not do anything to help the situation and are antagonistic just wanting what they want and damn everything else, but that is the internet and that is humanity there are some fun people and some assholes.

So that said, I have over 100 positive feedback and I would like to think I am even more gregarious and engaged now than when I started.

Thanks all!
Amarus Cameron

I'm a collector/hoarder, so I usually end up buying most cards I need that are over $20 :(

I have traded with Paul multiple times and he walks the talk. We have always set expectations and though it may seem petty it is less about getting all the value and more about making sure we are both happy in the deal. When one talks about their expectations assumptions fizzle out like an aura without a target. This way no one is surprised with what they get and both sides are happy.

That said I think I have traded with almost everyone who has commented here at least once and none have been a bad experience, quite the opposite so these guys know their stuff.

As a new trader here, I'd like to throw in my two cents. I don't feel that the amount of feedback an individual has on the site has any bearing whatsoever on the quality of the trade. Rather, I look for traders that are active and talkative. If I propose a trade, and that person shows activity on the site but doesn't respond to me within a day, I am inclined to believe that it was not going to work out as a trade in the first place. Honestly, how difficult is it to notice the notification, click on the trade, and say yes/no/let me think about it? I hate having stuff hanging in limbo with no communication. This goes for after the trade, too. Trying to track someone down to get feedback, which is especially important as a new user, is an unnecessary pain in the butt sometimes. I'd rather trade with someone who is responsive, honest, and open, rather than just basing trade decisions off of a feedback score.

Gnome said it quite well.

Good example is this guy: http://deckbox.org/users/Teenyhuman

Impossible to get a hold of 95% of the time. Has tons of stuff, etc.
*Shrug*

The one thing I think would be nice (really nice) to see on the forums, maybe in the box-area with your name and other info, is some detail on what sort of trades are pending on that username. Perhaps icons with numbers beside them, just like each user's actual trade page. If not on the forum, for whatever reason, then it would be great to have it on each user's home page so I can immediately see what someone has going on.

It would be nice to see, at a quick glance, that a guy asking to trade for Tarmogoyf x4 has...

Multi-direction arrow - 27 active trades
Bus with down arrow - 16 packages on the way to him
Bus with up arrow - 2 packages shipped out

I can immediately see that said guy is either about to scam his way off Deckbox or he's just amazingly slow and probably someone I don't want to trade with either way.

ABottleGnome wrote:As a new trader here, I'd like to throw in my two cents. I don't feel that the amount of feedback an individual has on the site has any bearing whatsoever on the quality of the trade. Rather, I look for traders that are active and talkative. If I propose a trade, and that person shows activity on the site but doesn't respond to me within a day, I am inclined to believe that it was not going to work out as a trade in the first place. Honestly, how difficult is it to notice the notification, click on the trade, and say yes/no/let me think about it? I hate having stuff hanging in limbo with no communication. This goes for after the trade, too. Trying to track someone down to get feedback, which is especially important as a new user, is an unnecessary pain in the butt sometimes. I'd rather trade with someone who is responsive, honest, and open, rather than just basing trade decisions off of a feedback score.

This gent and I just traded and it is pretty much as he said, we conversed and were able to work something out quick and easily. And to be honest I would trust a person who will talk with me much more than someone who's only communication is to change the configuration of the trade. There are enough people here that I like trading with that I steer well clear of those folk.

outofstep wrote:The one thing I think would be nice (really nice) to see on the forums, maybe in the box-area with your name and other info, is some detail on what sort of trades are pending on that username. Perhaps icons with numbers beside them, just like each user's actual trade page. If not on the forum, for whatever reason, then it would be great to have it on each user's home page so I can immediately see what someone has going on.

It would be nice to see, at a quick glance, that a guy asking to trade for Tarmogoyf x4 has...

Multi-direction arrow - 27 active trades
Bus with down arrow - 16 packages on the way to him
Bus with up arrow - 2 packages shipped out

I can immediately see that said guy is either about to scam his way off Deckbox or he's just amazingly slow and probably someone I don't want to trade with either way.

That is a pretty good idea, and it is based on actions not words and opinions of other people. Though the only potential problem I see is if the guy is scamming he might as well click that he has sent his cards and then you are back to square one.

AmarusCameron wrote:

outofstep wrote:The one thing I think would be nice (really nice) to see on the forums, maybe in the box-area with your name and other info, is some detail on what sort of trades are pending on that username. Perhaps icons with numbers beside them, just like each user's actual trade page. If not on the forum, for whatever reason, then it would be great to have it on each user's home page so I can immediately see what someone has going on.

It would be nice to see, at a quick glance, that a guy asking to trade for Tarmogoyf x4 has...

Multi-direction arrow - 27 active trades
Bus with down arrow - 16 packages on the way to him
Bus with up arrow - 2 packages shipped out

I can immediately see that said guy is either about to scam his way off Deckbox or he's just amazingly slow and probably someone I don't want to trade with either way.

That is a pretty good idea, and it is based on actions not words and opinions of other people. Though the only potential problem I see is if the guy is scamming he might as well click that he has sent his cards and then you are back to square one.

Perhaps if there was a field for tracking information, that could also be quantified. 10 trades going out, none with tracking? Possibly cause for concern if the trades are all high value.

ABottleGnome wrote:

AmarusCameron wrote:

outofstep wrote:The one thing I think would be nice (really nice) to see on the forums, maybe in the box-area with your name and other info, is some detail on what sort of trades are pending on that username. Perhaps icons with numbers beside them, just like each user's actual trade page. If not on the forum, for whatever reason, then it would be great to have it on each user's home page so I can immediately see what someone has going on.

It would be nice to see, at a quick glance, that a guy asking to trade for Tarmogoyf x4 has...

Multi-direction arrow - 27 active trades
Bus with down arrow - 16 packages on the way to him
Bus with up arrow - 2 packages shipped out

I can immediately see that said guy is either about to scam his way off Deckbox or he's just amazingly slow and probably someone I don't want to trade with either way.

That is a pretty good idea, and it is based on actions not words and opinions of other people. Though the only potential problem I see is if the guy is scamming he might as well click that he has sent his cards and then you are back to square one.

Perhaps if there was a field for tracking information, that could also be quantified. 10 trades going out, none with tracking? Possibly cause for concern if the trades are all high value.

As a developer myself I would say that you would be adding a lot of work for the guys who update this place. The Database now has to pull information from multiple sites with thousands of points of data (all of our tracking numbers) and return that to a value the database can read and then push it to our screen. Not saying it is impossible I'm saying that is a helluva lot of work. And I don't even know if the guys hear could get a connection to the databases of the delivery services (I'm guessing not) So I think the delivery thing is a bit unreal.

That is unless you are saying it's like a check box...but then again what keeps the scammer from checking that box?

AmarusCameron wrote:

ABottleGnome wrote:

AmarusCameron wrote:

That is a pretty good idea, and it is based on actions not words and opinions of other people. Though the only potential problem I see is if the guy is scamming he might as well click that he has sent his cards and then you are back to square one.

Perhaps if there was a field for tracking information, that could also be quantified. 10 trades going out, none with tracking? Possibly cause for concern if the trades are all high value.

As a developer myself I would say that you would be adding a lot of work for the guys who update this place. The Database now has to pull information from multiple sites with thousands of points of data (all of our tracking numbers) and return that to a value the database can read and then push it to our screen. Not saying it is impossible I'm saying that is a helluva lot of work. And I don't even know if the guys hear could get a connection to the databases of the delivery services (I'm guessing not) So I think the delivery thing is a bit unreal.

That is unless you are saying it's like a check box...but then again what keeps the scammer from checking that box?

Just a text field that the user can put the tracking number into, that people can see and check out on their own. No need to have tracking integration, it would be yes or no - a number or a null. I don't see it as a privacy issue, as they only show town names and not addresses, but if you're trading with someone, you have that info to compare to. If the user is in, say, Boston, and the tracking number says it originated in Boise, I'd question that.

Some of these Ideas should be thrown here: (http://deckbox.org/forum/viewforum.php?id=3)

Not that discussing them here is bad, but Im not sure how much Deckbox support team checks group forum threads opposed to the Designated Discussion for Deckbox Forum

Well like any redditor's comment stream this has degenerated into something else =P

AmarusCameron wrote:Well like any redditor's comment stream this has degenerated into something else =P

+1

I don't feel that the amount of feedback an individual has on the site has any bearing whatsoever on the quality of the trade.

I don't think the character of trader can be quantified by their refs. Perhaps it's just that a trader is more inclined to show their true nature when they have a large number of refs. As a new trader, you might be willing to invest more time, be more polite, or even show a tougher skin as a defense. As an established trader who has a large number of refs, you might be more inclined to lean on those refs and less inclined to use a facade. If your innate character is one that lacks empathy or is of arrogance, it could be more evident in your trades. If your innate character is one of empathy and humbleness, perhaps you are even more likely to present a positive trade experience for others.

A second issue is attention to detail. Some people are very detail oriented, and some are not. As a new trader, you might not know what to look for, but you are probably more likely to take the time to look and scrutinize things. As an established trader, it could become routine. You might stop looking so carefully at the things you send out, or when you said you would send them. You might start thinking to yourself as above the rules or that you should be warranted more leeway or that you can get away with more things because you have more refs.

An important note is that I hypothesis that these behaviours are less apparent to ourselves than others. We might not have intentionally meant to sent a card late or sent a card that was actually played when we had it marked as NM. However, we might be more inclined to think we are less fallible. "That person has a fourth of the refs than I do, certainly I could not have been wrong. They must be trying to cheat me."

These are only thoughts based on anecdotal experiences I have had. Between motl and deckbox combined I have a little over 90 refs. In all those trades, I've only had 3 genuinely bad experiences (2 motl, 1 deckbox) that I can recall. All three of those were with traders that had a considerable amount of refs (over 100). In two of those cases, they misrepresented their card condition and tried to pass the blame onto me when I questioned it.

One other small note, people sometimes seem to slide card grading tolerances based upon the value of the card. A $1 rare they are happy to say is SP, but a $35 card is NM unless it's MP or lower. I know 10-30% off the card value is a lot more meaningful on a $100 card, but if a card is not NM, it's not NM.

Thanks for all the replies!

No problem I love pontificating on this stuff, it was just an interesting question that certainly merited a response.