I'm just getting back into Magic after many years of not playing. My favorite part about card/video games is coming up with unconventional ways of playing, and something about Gutter Grime really appealed to me. I started making a deck combining that with a bunch of Undying cards, cards that require sacrifice, and 2 Warstorm Surge's.

I was looking around on a few forums and noticed this card gets a lot of hate, and was just wondering what the major drawbacks were. It seems a lot of people say it's easy to wipe the battlefield because all the opponent would need is something to destroy an enchantment. What are the best ways to prevent that? Is there anything else I'm missing that I'd only learn after getting my ass kicked a few times?

Thanks in advance

well, here's some issues with the card.

It's slow - at 5 CMC you're playing it against other 5 drops. Look at the other 5 drops available. Things like obzedat ghost council, storm breath dragon, etc... this are big creatures that affect the board and you're 5 drop does nothing unless one of your creatures dies.

SOOO, in order for this heavily invested card to function you need to lose position on the board. That's 2 strikes already. 1)high cmc, for no impact, and 2) loss of board presence to function.

It's difficult to interact with - lots of the ways to bring creatures quickly in and out of play are token based. Some of them are undying, but you get 2 shots with those and not much else. This card doesn't work off tokens.

You're combo piece is even slower than the card that helps enable it.

To enable this card you need the following.

1. Ramp - to get this card on the field earlier.
2. A creature or spell that enables you to repeatedly cast non token creatures, recur them from the graveyard, or put them into play somehow.
3. Stop your opponent from winning. In the time you takes you to set up this combo your opponent is basically playing by themselves playing creature after creature or developing a way to control your board.
4. Lets not forget just outright enchant hate. You need to be able to combat this, and there just aren't a lot of ways outside of counter spells or granting your permanents indestructibility.

You're options for these are limited and will make the deck more complicated and fragile just to get some kind of janky combo to work.

Take mine and everyone Else's word for it. This is a bad card. don't play it don't think about it in constructed. It "might" be playable in some EDH strategies. For that matter warstorm surge isn't that great either.

Thanks for the feedback, this is exactly what I was looking for.

I have no intention on playing competitively, so I'll probably keep pursuing this deck just for fun with friends, but now I at least know more about how fragile and unreliable the combo is. Just for kicks I'd still like to see how it combines with Warstorm Surge, a few creatures on the board and Blasphemous Act.

Great info though, gives me a little more perspective about playing in general. Much appreciated.

If you're going to push forward with the card, I think it needs to go in some sort of Jund (Red black Green) ramp/ undying deck. You want a few removal cards like doomblade and a way to ramp these out and some draw to try to get to your cards. Black is going to get you undying creatures, removal and draw. Red gets you warstorm and access to more removal. Green is your ramp color, it has a few more undying creatures too.

This is what I'm working with so far, I think it's sort of along the lines of what you said. Any specific suggestions on what I've picked?

http://deckbox.org/sets/520627

I don't trade much and would rather not buy specific cards (I'm a completely casual player), so I'm more or less only working with what I have.

Also, what do you mean when you say "green is your ramp color?" Do you mean I should use as many green cards that provide land as possible?

ramping is creatures or cards that provide additional mana by actually tapping for mana, or putting additional lands in play. IE: Elvish Mystic, Farseak, Sylvan Carytid, arbor elf.

if you're as casual as you say my advice wouldn't help much. Just build your decks play them out and see what works. Just try to evaluate your cards honestly. Just because you "love" a card doesn't mean it's a good card to be playing.

Ask yourself these questions.

Are there cards that do what I'm trying to do or similar, for cheaper?
How often did I win/lose a game after I played said card?
Where your opponents able to answer your card?
Does the card stand on it's own? IE: if it's the only card on the board can I win the game?
Is there a different card that would just be better instead?
How many cards does it take to support this card? Are those cards worth playing by themselves?

This is exactly the type of card I would run in my Ghave EDH deck, because making tokens is fun. Although this one may be a little high on the converted mana costs. In addition to undying, consider also the persist creatures. If you have a means of putting +1/+1 counters on creatures as they enter the battlefield then persist can turn into combo (The rules state that if a creature has a -1/-1 counter and you put a +1/+1 counter on it, you actually remove the -1/-1 counter. They cancel each other out). You want to not only trigger abilities when things die, but also from things entering the battlefield (You already have Champion of Lambholt), but here are some suggestions:

Fecundity - (triggers on all things including tokens - gives cards)
Attrition - something to do with tokens.
Awakening Zone - I underestimated this at first because I thought of it like a bad ramp spell, but really it's more like a better Breeding Pit or a green Bitterblossom.
Geralf's Messenger - Figure out a way to remove the +1s and win.
Pawn of Ulamog - Triggers on things dying, gives more bodys that are also ramp.
Ogre Slumlord - Triggers on things dying, gives more bodys.
Korozda Guildmage - Sac for benefit
Falkenrath Noble - Blood Artist #2
Lumberknot - You want things to die right?
Perilous Forays - I wish this didn't cost 5 mana, but still some sick ramp.
Growth Spasm - land + token
Trading Post - make tokens, sac dudes, gain life, recur artifacts... proffit???
Sadistic Hypnotist - Yeah
Death's Presence - possibly too much of a win more... not sure
Ashnod's Altar
Reassembling Skeleton - a mana sink for sure, but a solid card that you can sac and sac and sac some more.

Also look for ways to remove the +1/+1 counters from your undying guys so you can create an engine... I use Ghave, Guru of Spores in EDH, but he's not in your colors.

Man, the depth and variety of all these mechanics and combinations is staggering and fantastic. Thanks for the advice, can't wait to playtest all of the above. I might even cave at some point and buy a few of the cards mentioned rather than relying strictly on boosters.

Eindacor_DS wrote:Man, the depth and variety of all these mechanics and combinations is staggering and fantastic. Thanks for the advice, can't wait to playtest all of the above. I might even cave at some point and buy a few of the cards mentioned rather than relying strictly on boosters.

Yeah, there is a lot of synergy for this theme available, just be careful about putting too many cards that cost too much mana into your deck. The big mana spells that don't do anything on their own (like Death's Presence) can be a real weak point for the deck if you rely on them too much. Also if you play a card like Perilous Forays, be careful not to over extend. If you take all of the land out of your deck and someone casts Armageddon, you could be screwed. That doesn't mean you can't use it and choose not to find a basic land though if you're hard up for a sacrifice outlet.

edit: I'm going to add one more. This is one I've had my eye on recently as it's a 1 drop sac outlet that also gives it's self +1/+1 counters. Carrion Feeder

Keep in mind that Gum is talking about EDH here too. Some of the concepts are the same but it's not the same as a 60 card constructed deck. It's not feasable in a 60 card deck to include some of the cards mentioned. You have to have a plan and stick to it and execute it as consistently as possible.

EDH is a horse of a different color. While there is strateby and you do include synergistic cards it's quite likely that you will never see a given card in a matchup. There's a strategy to it, but it's not the same.

elpablo wrote:Keep in mind that Gum is talking about EDH here too. Some of the concepts are the same but it's not the same as a 60 card constructed deck. It's not feasable in a 60 card deck to include some of the cards mentioned. You have to have a plan and stick to it and execute it as consistently as possible.

EDH is a horse of a different color. While there is strateby and you do include synergistic cards it's quite likely that you will never see a given card in a matchup. There's a strategy to it, but it's not the same.

Also keep in mind he has a 71 card deck with 38 distinct cards right now. He's well on his way to building an EDH deck. All he needs is a sick general like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, and to cut all those silly multiples... ;)

Actually I think what he has is a good start on the idea, and most of the cards he's selected are decent on their own. I was just offering some things that fit his theme. Out of the ones I suggested, for a 60 card deck Fecundity, Carrion Feeder and Sadistic Hypnotist are probably the most interesting. I wouldn't throw all of those cards in a 60 card constructed deck, I'm just throwing out ideas. I'd probably cut that elk for Sakura-Tribe Elder, even though it's a 1/1 for the same initial mana cost, not having to pay a G to sac it is relevant in the early game.

Haha, it's a work in progress! I've been building decks by adding everything that could be relevant and narrowing it down. I don't know the cards well enough to pick them off the top of my head, so the process of elimination is all I got.

Eindacor_DS wrote:Haha, it's a work in progress! I've been building decks by adding everything that could be relevant and narrowing it down. I don't know the cards well enough to pick them off the top of my head, so the process of elimination is all I got.

I do the same thing. Usually I keep it at 60 cards as I'm building though, and put the things I'm considering on the sideboard. It makes it easier for me to cut it down by moving one thing in that's superior to something that's in the deck, and moving that thing out (to the sideboard). This way I can cut cards without forgetting about them completely until I actually start sleeving cards up. At that point I start deleting the ones I don't want to acquire or turned out to be sub-par.

gumgodMTG wrote:

Eindacor_DS wrote:Haha, it's a work in progress! I've been building decks by adding everything that could be relevant and narrowing it down. I don't know the cards well enough to pick them off the top of my head, so the process of elimination is all I got.

I do the same thing. Usually I keep it at 60 cards as I'm building though, and put the things I'm considering on the sideboard. It makes it easier for me to cut it down by moving one thing in that's superior to something that's in the deck, and moving that thing out (to the sideboard). This way I can cut cards without forgetting about them completely until I actually start sleeving cards up. At that point I start deleting the ones I don't want to acquire or turned out to be sub-par.

That's a good idea. To be honest I didn't even know what the sideboard was until a day or two ago.

As a strictly casual player, I can attest to the crushing losses I have suffered across the table from a Gutter Grime. I can also see how it's a terrible card under competitive conditions. That's the beauty of magic and the designers behind it. They specifically build cards for all of their audiences now. Innistrad block is a perfect example of the depth of design. Werewolves are really cool and fun in casual play but are way too slow for competition, which is nice because they were always cheap.
My Playgroup rarely plays any sort of enchantment hate, so gutter grime is sfe and powerful as is pacifism, armored ascension, cathar's crusade. However, due to my self mill decks, it's very common to see graveyard hate, so a normally awesome and competitive strangleroot geist will rarely see the battlefield twice.
I guess my point is play what you like and determine whether it works for you.