Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

rixan wrote:
laura wrote:

...yes, we expected TcgPlayer to not be happy, but we didn't expected them to be unhappy so soon :-) I am not trying to get your sympathy or pity, I am simply explaining why proper market research wasn't done, why we chose to add the martketplace and why we added the Amazon prices.

Thank you, this is a proper response to the "crisis at hand"....Just decrying TCG for being a bully and mean to you on the playground is a poor way to represent your newly founded business. No corporate entity would allow a competitor to get all its hard work for free...unless you will go on record stating that you will allow any competing site to fully index your prices and use them to undercut you? smile

I agree.  This bit from Laura is the best (and perhaps the only acceptable) response from the site's administration in this thread.

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

these amazon prices are all over the place. It is making it so i am unable to speculate trades, and it takes alot of effort to go through each individual card and get the tcg link, this is very saddening.

I WANT YOUR MIRRODIN, DARKSTEEL AND FIFTH DAWN RARES THAT ARE ON MY WISHLIST!!!!

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

Helios52 wrote:

Website is nearly unusable as is...

This is the most overreactive statement Ive seen. The fact that all your cards and decks are still listed and stored in once place means nothing? Trading didnt stop. Is it really that much extra work to have an extra browser window open next to deckbox to TCG or SCG or ebay or mtgprice or wherever to do a quick search of the current price of a card? Sure this is an extra step in the process but honestly, if you are that concerned about having the most current price of a card when completing a trade/sale, this should be something done regardless if a price generated automatically or an idea in your head on how much its worth.

Im honestly shocked by the amount of negativity and the lack of patience some people have.

It's all perspective man.  You go ahead and put in all the extra effort you want... I traded within deckbox exclusively because of ease of use.   I don't have time to mess with everything you're suggesting and will not be trading online until deckbox fixes their stuff or i find another website that's equally as useful. 

There are high volume traders on here that will feel the same way, i guarantee it. And judging by the comments to your post most people already do.

Edit: And as I said in response to Sebi's response.  I"ll be back and I'm rooting for them, but I just don't have time to waste using a site that doesn't provide the features I'm looking for.  I was fine trading with people in person before. I'll go back to that as a primary source for trading.

Bottom, line deckbox had a customer base built in that respected them and the service they provided.  This hiccup is a major over-site because it sends a message. If they can't handle a transaction to a market place based system that uses their own information how will they mange the market place when it's in full force?  Consumer confidence is important to this type of business.

Last edited by elpablo (2014-04-02 14:58:18)

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

buughost wrote:

Is this because you guys explicitly added a market/sales functionality? If so... Get rid of it. I feel like your primary user base is traders not sellers (though I could be wrong). Maybe you should do some research or poll your active user base. I've sold stuff here occasionally, but I'd rather have TCG pricing integrated rather than a specific sales function.

I totally agree with buughost. If the problem stems from you adding a market/sales functionality, get rid of it! I, for one, only use Deckbox to catalog and trade cards. I would much rather have a reliable pricing structure than a silly sales function. I can sell my cards anywhere (LGS, eBay, Amazon, online card stores, etc). Deckbox is too valuable a website to me (and others) to see it become a casualty over an unnecessary function.

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

A bit off topic revenue wise, but a few suggestions in addition to selling:

*Subscription service - Add some additional functionality for like a dollar a month.
*Donations - Put paypal donate button on my profile page. I would be happy to support deckbox, but I don't see the option.

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

ballth wrote:
buughost wrote:

Is this because you guys explicitly added a market/sales functionality? If so... Get rid of it. I feel like your primary user base is traders not sellers (though I could be wrong). Maybe you should do some research or poll your active user base. I've sold stuff here occasionally, but I'd rather have TCG pricing integrated rather than a specific sales function.

I totally agree with buughost. If the problem stems from you adding a market/sales functionality, get rid of it! I, for one, only use Deckbox to catalog and trade cards. I would much rather have a reliable pricing structure than a silly sales function. I can sell my cards anywhere (LGS, eBay, Amazon, online card stores, etc). Deckbox is too valuable a website to me (and others) to see it become a casualty over an unnecessary function.

You missed the part where they said if they didn't add the market to monetize the site then they'd shut it down.

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

jassi007 wrote:
ballth wrote:
buughost wrote:

Is this because you guys explicitly added a market/sales functionality? If so... Get rid of it. I feel like your primary user base is traders not sellers (though I could be wrong). Maybe you should do some research or poll your active user base. I've sold stuff here occasionally, but I'd rather have TCG pricing integrated rather than a specific sales function.

I totally agree with buughost. If the problem stems from you adding a market/sales functionality, get rid of it! I, for one, only use Deckbox to catalog and trade cards. I would much rather have a reliable pricing structure than a silly sales function. I can sell my cards anywhere (LGS, eBay, Amazon, online card stores, etc). Deckbox is too valuable a website to me (and others) to see it become a casualty over an unnecessary function.

You missed the part where they said if they didn't add the market to monetize the site then they'd shut it down.

and the part where TCG wouldn't give them access to their API even if they took the Market functionality out.

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

laura wrote:

While I haven't done any development on Deckbox in the past year, I have followed closely its evolution as I have to stand Sebi's moods each day as he curses at the code smile and I have advised him during the development.

Reading everything posted here just reminds me of the Diablo 3 forum posts back when they launched (eg. "They broke Diablo", "this sucks", etc.) but I can't say I'm very surprised. As a former MtG player myself, I admit the amazon prices are not close to an ideal solution.

To address some of the questions raised here, as it seems that some of you don't see the big picture.

- Deckbox is not a big company (3 people)
- the ads we had didn't support the tiny company
- donations wouldn't have been enough to support it either
- we have taken into consideration adding premium-like features, but that would have been conflicting with Wizards of the Coast and that's not a company we want to be arguing with
- we have considered many other monetisation possibilities
- the marketplace was chosen as a solution for monetisation because it makes sense and fits in the whole logic of Deckbox
- yes, we expected TcgPlayer to not be happy, but we didn't expected them to be unhappy so soon :-)

I am not trying to get your sympathy or pity, I am simply explaining why proper market research wasn't done, why we chose to add the martketplace and why we added the Amazon prices. I understand this ruins some people's trades at the moment and we are in a less than comfortable place right now, but as mentioned before, it is not a permanent solution.

So please, bear with us, we understand and we are working on it smile

I hope that's as far as the Diablo 3 analogy goes, as that was the biggest disappointment in video game history I've ever experienced. I'm more than capable of updating my own card inventory and handling trades without any accurate pricing information, so I feel I'm probably less invested in this site than some other responders here. However, I do sincerely hope Deckbox can manage this problem well and thrive in the future. This has been the best site for collection management and trading that I've found and I'd like to continue using it.

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

What about http://classic.magictraders.com/pricelists/ ?

Although that said the last update for that was in October of last year..

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

To start, I want to thank the Deckbox team for their development efforts. I work for a large software company out of the US, and understand and can relate to the immediate overreaction that most consumers have, regardless of how misguided, when hiccups occur.  The key point, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is that the Deckbox team is providing us a free service, with an excellent ability to catalog, create, and peruse random deck ideas we create in our heads easily.  More so, they have not abandoned the site.  Most people/small person teams would give up after being legally "hammered" by a company like TCG, but they didn't.  They are continuing to work, and we, as their end users, should have a little faith in them.

We all at some point need to realize that a team of 3 members are going to have other responsibilities outside of developing a FREE site for all of the users to enjoy.  They do have bills, personal obligations, etc., that require attention, and I for one am in favor of giving them the time and breathing room to create a stable pricing solution.  They are correct, the Google ads would in no way provide a suitable income that could cover and justify the endless hours it must take to manage this site. Possibly having another job, plus spending hours to manage this site and STILL manage to live an enjoyable lifestyle? People are blind if they think that's possible for free.  If we take a look at whats been developed so far, and the ease of use, i think we should all look forward to the next iteration the team will provide! Perhaps they will bring an App developer online to provide us with a mobile based solution!

Congrats to the Deckbox team for what you have developed so far, and I for one, look forward to the changes and evolution to come!

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

tjdrake719 wrote:

A bit off topic revenue wise, but a few suggestions in addition to selling:

*Subscription service - Add some additional functionality for like a dollar a month.
*Donations - Put paypal donate button on my profile page. I would be happy to support deckbox, but I don't see the option.

I would like to say that I have fully appreciated every little detail that the deckbox team has put into this site, all for free.  For now yes, it seems that the prices are not working, but I have full confidence that the deckbox team will get it up and running as quickly as possible.  There are a couple of points that I fully agree with that people are making as well.

1.  Tjdrake and others have suggested several options to help you through this funk while the revenue stream is low.  No, they would not sustain the website, but I think it would provide some relief for your team while you are working on the new pricing.
2.  Several people mentioned using mtgprice as a good price reference, I agree, I have been using their site for quite some time and they are quite good.
3.  As much as it pains me to say, I think the market function should be put on hold until the pricing can be figured out, but I would not get rid of it.  Not only is it a revenue stream for the deckbox team, it is an excellent addition to deckbox for anyone selling/buying and doesn't harm the people who don't use it. 
4.  Please Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help, aside from donating 1 billion dollars (sorry I do not have)

I have full confidence in you Sebi and team, keep up the good work!

Cheers!
Byron (gnp)

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

rixan wrote:

No corporate entity would allow a competitor to get all its hard work for free...unless you will go on record stating that you will allow any competing site to fully index your prices and use them to undercut you? smile

I hereby go on record smile stating that not only I will allow other websites to index our prices should they wish, but I will be glad for the publicity and for their respect (as that would mean they value our prices a lot).

As I have indeed respected Tcgplayer for their prices. They have a good business, I do not mean to sound overly critical of them. I was only put off by their communication and attitude on this issue.

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

gnp17 wrote:
tjdrake719 wrote:

A bit off topic revenue wise, but a few suggestions in addition to selling:

*Subscription service - Add some additional functionality for like a dollar a month.
*Donations - Put paypal donate button on my profile page. I would be happy to support deckbox, but I don't see the option.

I would like to say that I have fully appreciated every little detail that the deckbox team has put into this site, all for free.  For now yes, it seems that the prices are not working, but I have full confidence that the deckbox team will get it up and running as quickly as possible.  There are a couple of points that I fully agree with that people are making as well.

1.  Tjdrake and others have suggested several options to help you through this funk while the revenue stream is low.  No, they would not sustain the website, but I think it would provide some relief for your team while you are working on the new pricing.
2.  Several people mentioned using mtgprice as a good price reference, I agree, I have been using their site for quite some time and they are quite good.
3.  As much as it pains me to say, I think the market function should be put on hold until the pricing can be figured out, but I would not get rid of it.  Not only is it a revenue stream for the deckbox team, it is an excellent addition to deckbox for anyone selling/buying and doesn't harm the people who don't use it. 
4.  Please Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help, aside from donating 1 billion dollars (sorry I do not have)

I have full confidence in you Sebi and team, keep up the good work!

Cheers!
Byron (gnp)

I whole heartedly agree to this.

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

Helios52 wrote:

No, a valid reaction is " Im going to hold off trading/selling for the moment until this gets fixed to an acceptable level". Saying the site is "nearly unusable" is overreactive to the everything else deckbox does that those MANY other forums do not.

Young people (especially those between ages 2-26) are over-reactive naturally.  They believe (knowingly or not) that being loud and bombastic will yield 'traffic' their way.  With attention comes fame, with fame comes money.  It is a very short/brief business model but applicable for temporary gains.  After all people are corporations (if we inverse the legal ruling that corporations are people), people are money.  People no longer equals a person.  "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."  This is a direct result of the expansion and proliferation of media.  As Gramsci would say one can not separate people from their culture.

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

First of all, thank you DeckBox team for creating this wonderful playground of trading possibilities.  Without it, i'm not so sure I would have made it through job corp (Stuck on a center in the middle of Kentucky with 0 FNMs or shops within 40 miles!) I hope the issue is fixed soon.  I guess I don't have very much useful input on the situation as I am fairly ignorant of anything lawful and I'm nowhere  savy enough with coding to be of any use but I believe that SOMEONE out there will find a way. 

To address the question of "If the prices don't work, why not just use another site that does?"  Well at the risk of sounding like an ass (I certainly don't mean to but I want to be direct here)

*Why not indeed?  No one is stopping those who wish to go but consider this:

A) This site is the most user friendly of any trading sites out there and not only that but the amount of organization you can do with your catalogue of cards here is the best i've ever seen.

B) Where else will you find a more dedicated staff that takes time to actually hop on the forums and address their users so directly?  Does that not in itself speak to the community we have here?  Are people seriously going to give up that community over a major hiccup? 

Just Food for though, nothing more or less.

-VampireArmy Aka Andrew

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

I have to say that I am sad to see this turn of events. There is no way this sort of site could support three people as it was, and I doubt it will now have the traffic to support three people as it is. This site should have been looked at like a second job or a hobby out of love. This site was great while it lasted. Managing the prices is a pain in the arse, and this site's main draw WAS the main reason to use it. I am not sure if I will be cancelling all my trades or not, I will have to see what the values look like....

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

shealy06 wrote:

To start, I want to thank the Deckbox team for their development efforts. I work for a large software company out of the US, and understand and can relate to the immediate overreaction that most consumers have, regardless of how misguided, when hiccups occur.  The key point, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is that the Deckbox team is providing us a free service, with an excellent ability to catalog, create, and peruse random deck ideas we create in our heads easily.  More so, they have not abandoned the site.  Most people/small person teams would give up after being legally "hammered" by a company like TCG, but they didn't.  They are continuing to work, and we, as their end users, should have a little faith in them.

We all at some point need to realize that a team of 3 members are going to have other responsibilities outside of developing a FREE site for all of the users to enjoy.  They do have bills, personal obligations, etc., that require attention, and I for one am in favor of giving them the time and breathing room to create a stable pricing solution.  They are correct, the Google ads would in no way provide a suitable income that could cover and justify the endless hours it must take to manage this site. Possibly having another job, plus spending hours to manage this site and STILL manage to live an enjoyable lifestyle? People are blind if they think that's possible for free.  If we take a look at whats been developed so far, and the ease of use, i think we should all look forward to the next iteration the team will provide! Perhaps they will bring an App developer online to provide us with a mobile based solution!

Congrats to the Deckbox team for what you have developed so far, and I for one, look forward to the changes and evolution to come!

I second this comment.  I am anxiously awaiting the properly-functioning site.

Although, this is the internet and I am an engineer, so I feel obligated to overreact, after-the-fact criticize the decisions of the deckbox team, and call them a bunch of foul words because they didn't do everything exactly the way that I would have.

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

This may be too late, but could a way to monetize the site be to involve a subscription fee to be on here?  It could be something monthly or yearly, but I know I certainly wouldn't mind paying some small fee to enjoy the use of the site.  I think that as a trading platform and inventory management tool, the site has a lot to offer.  These features would surely only improve, should the team be afforded the ability to work on it full time.

I certainly understand the need to monetize a site like this, but it's obviously very unfortunate that these consequences have resulted from adding the marketplace, as it does significantly limit the functionality of deckbox as a trading platform.  My worry about this, though, is that you risk losing lots of potential marketplace customers by decreasing the functionality of the trade platform.  It would seem like there are a lot people who would primarily use the site for trading, but occasionally would buy cards here if they're having trouble acquiring them in a trade.

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

I hope the deckbox team is reaching out to Crystal Commerce, the majority of moderate-sized sellers on tcgplayer have it as their backend.  If deckbox marketplace can integrate seamlessly with Crystal Commerce, you will immediately have a large %-age of the volume for sale on tcgplayer.  CC lets the sellers manage their inventory simultaneously through their own sites, ebay, amazon, and hopefully soon deckbox.

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

I had to share this it made me laugh. http://i.imgur.com/PsAj7gD.jpg

Now is the time to buy modern staples, Affinity is down to $13!

Last edited by jassi007 (2014-04-02 16:19:58)

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

As for the new issues, I fully stand by Sebi, Laura, and the third member of the Deckbox team.  I will continue to use the website and will continue uploading cards to expand my tradelist.  Deckbox has grown and its users have demanded more.  The Deckbox team ('team') as a result has had to increase their time spent on the website.  As things have progressed the 'breaking point' between work and deckbox collided.  The 'team' believes that Deckbox is their passion.  They are willing to gamble on Deckbox rather than what their previous lives where.  Deckbox needs to become sustainable, most likely at a reduced income from their current employment (hence a gamble).  I fully agree that ads are unsustainable as are donations.  Ads cause more harm in the long run.  Donations are pleasant but unreliable.  The 'team' seeks reliability. 

I believe that the 'team' could get enough data collected for its marketplace to create a smooth transition from TCG to its own data.  I have no doubts that they tried to delay and hold off TCG for as long as they could.  Their marketplace data is about a month away. 

As for the viability and necessity of the marketplace - it is essential for the future of deckbox.  No other source would provide the 'team' with the timemoney to continue to meet the demand from its users and WoTCs' new products.  I believe that the switch to Amazon pricing was a result of a quick (i.e. immediate) patch while they pursue other means of getting an acceptable or best answer API key from another location.  I believe they are pursuing another API key to replace TCG and the current Amazon.  They will use the key and implement it as soon as they are able.  They are also still collecting data points for the marketplace and will switch over from the API key to the marketplace in a far smoother and gradual tone. 

The reactions and egress of some were and are unavoidable.  Much like every sport team, there are observers, casual fans, committed fans, and fanatics.  In good times everybody is a fan of the team and goes to games (creating a spike), in bad times there is a lull.  While observers are appreciated and often most vocal when things go bad (in a negative way) they are always the first to leave and the last to join.  They are around for the fame but once you've gone from grace, gotten old, and are sick suddenly they never answer the phone when you need help.  (This is not a bad thing, it just is.  Everybody has done this before and will do it again.  I do not deride anybody for feeling or being this way.)  Things on deckbox will not be as quick and easy as before.  I, however, believe in the 'team' and am able to ride out this month long wait.  I will also still conduct trading do to my belief in the 'team'. 

For those thinking about going inactive while the problems are being addressed I would like to recommend using the next month as a test of your MTG card price acumen.  Believe in yourself to accurately price cards.  You play magic, have played magic, you have seen what people are looking for, trade for, and most importantly use in decks.  Use that information to adjudicate a price with your knowledge and expertise.  Pit that value on the value of other cards using your expertise.  I have faith that you will come to a reasonable value eventually in your trades.

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

Paul_K wrote:

The reactions and egress of some were and are unavoidable.  Much like every sport team, there are observers, casual fans, committed fans, and fanatics.  In good times everybody is a fan of the team and goes to games (creating a spike), in bad times there is a lull.  While observers are appreciated and often most vocal when things go bad (in a negative way) they are always the first to leave and the last to join.  They are around for the fame but once you've gone from grace, gotten old, and are sick suddenly they never answer the phone when you need help.  (This is not a bad thing, it just is.  Everybody has done this before and will do it again.  I do not deride anybody for feeling or being this way.)  Things on deckbox will not be as quick and easy as before.  I, however, believe in the 'team' and am able to ride out this month long wait.  I will also still conduct trading do to my belief in the 'team'.

I cant help but feel as though your sports analogy also speaks to us true Buffalo Sabres fans as well...

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

sebi wrote:

I have tried to discuss and reason with the president of Tcgplayer, offered my thanks for the collaboration until now, explained our position on the market and general strategy for the future in a clear way. All we received were legal threats.

This is a typical kind of response from him. I am not surprised he doesn't give a wink about other people in the community, or the community as a whole that count on these prices.

I have had dealings with him in the same way, non-communicative, non-negotiable. While this may be a business practice for them, it just makes him and the TCG site look like assholes. The way he doesn't want to include or work with anybody on anything. I have heard this from many different website owners, users, and stores.

Someone suggested using MTGstocks, well guess where those prices come from too. Also MTGprice just released a beta API but again they use some TCG but also other pries such as amazon, and larger store prices, which combined isn't always as accurate or accepted as TCG prices are. It's a start, you could talk with Alasdair over there, see if he is receptive of other ideas.

Overall, I am disgusted with this. I think it's about time users, store owners, and websites stand up to TCG against their bully tactics.

Thank you

Last edited by P9CO (2014-04-05 08:21:57)

> http://deckbox.org/users/P9CO

H: Tradelist | W: Standard cards on my wishlist
- The higher number on my want list the more I want it!

Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

shealy06 wrote:

To start, I want to thank the Deckbox team for their development efforts. I work for a large software company out of the US, and understand and can relate to the immediate overreaction that most consumers have, regardless of how misguided, when hiccups occur.  The key point, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is that the Deckbox team is providing us a free service, with an excellent ability to catalog, create, and peruse random deck ideas we create in our heads easily.  More so, they have not abandoned the site.  Most people/small person teams would give up after being legally "hammered" by a company like TCG, but they didn't.  They are continuing to work, and we, as their end users, should have a little faith in them.

We all at some point need to realize that a team of 3 members are going to have other responsibilities outside of developing a FREE site for all of the users to enjoy.  They do have bills, personal obligations, etc., that require attention, and I for one am in favor of giving them the time and breathing room to create a stable pricing solution.  They are correct, the Google ads would in no way provide a suitable income that could cover and justify the endless hours it must take to manage this site. Possibly having another job, plus spending hours to manage this site and STILL manage to live an enjoyable lifestyle? People are blind if they think that's possible for free.  If we take a look at whats been developed so far, and the ease of use, i think we should all look forward to the next iteration the team will provide! Perhaps they will bring an App developer online to provide us with a mobile based solution!

Congrats to the Deckbox team for what you have developed so far, and I for one, look forward to the changes and evolution to come!

Without a doubt, the best comment on this post!! It opened my eyes to the amount of work and effort put forth by our Deckbox team. Thank you shealy06 for saying this and above all, THANK YOU SEBI & CO. FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK!! I will continue to support Deckbox in whatever way they see fit to keep this site running.

Sincerely,
Lou Harland

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Re: Site-wide card pricing changes

Even if they don't get a way to price the cards how about a place where we can price out cards ourselves. Just like we can update the amount of cards we have. Most cards don't change prices that much but mainly be there just to have some value. Of course this could also be used along with a price engine to help price obscure promos and rarer cards that don't even receive enough traffic to have values.