Topic: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

I think it's important to make the Trade process as fast and smooth as possible and that means only as much back-and-forth as necessary.

I searched Help and this Forum, but did not find an explanation why there is a separate Confirm Address step after Proposal and Acceptance. Could you enlighten me please? Maybe all we need is an article on how a trade progresses in the Help section.

From my experience I find that it slows trading down significantly - sometimes by days! People often forget to confirm their address when their trade partner Accepts and almost every time I trade with a new trader they miss this - even if they're the one to Accept - which suggests that it's not intuitive.

I'm sure there are good reasons to have this as a separate step, but I'm not sure that they would apply in the general use case. i.e. most users have only one address.

Here are my Feature Requests for this:

A. Remove the Confirm Postal Address step.
- Addresses can be selected while the trade is still being configured, but are hidden until the trade is Accepted. A user must have an address selected in order to Propose.
- Pre-populate the address with the user's default address (their only address or the address they choose as default in Edit Profile & Settings)

or

B. Keep the Confirm Postal Address step, but improve it:
- Pre-populate the address with the user's default address (their only address or the one they choose as default in Edit Profile & Settings) They only need to Confirm it (or do they?)
- Add a red exclamation symbol in the Trades sidebar for each trade that needs address confirmation (like Orders that need to be shipped)
- Could add a checkbox in the Edit Profile & Settings screen that allows Auto-Confirmation of my Postal Address in every one of my trades (on Acceptance by either party)
- Could add a checkbox in each Trade screen that allows Auto-Confirmation of my Postal Address (on Acceptance by either party)

As always, thank you very much!

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Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

True, I like this alot.

How about we just put the address selector there when the trade is editable, and you have to select your address before proposing, the other party has to select the address before accepting?

Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

Rather "A lot" instead of alot. Because alot is this guy http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S … 0/ALOT.png smile

Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

Ha! Yes! And please pre-populate the postal address (at least if there's only one address) so that in most cases traders won't have to do anything for their address at all!

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Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

sebi wrote:

True, I like this alot.

How about we just put the address selector there when the trade is editable, and you have to select your address before proposing, the other party has to select the address before accepting?

I wouldn't like this at all...for one thing, there are much larger lags between proposal and acceptance than acceptance and confirming addresses, thus we would be committing our cards to the void for a longer period of time...The second is that we'd be committing our cards for trade without knowing whether or not our trade partner is satisfied with the deal yet.  If the user accepts out of the blue, you'd be committed immediately...as the system works now that is not the case, you don't officially commit cards to the deal per the terms until the confirm address stage which is AFTER both parties have formally notified each other in the system that they are happy with the deal.

Right now, if I propose a trade to a guy on Thursday and Friday night rolls around and I haven't heard anything; I am free to trade the card away at fnm and cancel in the morning.  Under the proposed plan, I either have to log on to deckbox to cancel my proposal before trading it at fnm or risk that my partner doesn't accept until next time I check deckbox....that is a huge functional change in how many people trade on this platform.

Last edited by bactgudz (2014-10-30 14:15:30)

Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

bactgudz wrote:

I wouldn't like this at all...for one thing, there are much larger lags between proposal and acceptance than acceptance and confirming addresses, thus we would be committing our cards to the void for a longer period of time...The second is that we'd be committing our cards for trade without knowing whether or not our trade partner is satisfied with the deal yet.  If the user accepts out of the blue, you'd be committed immediately...as the system works now that is not the case, you don't officially commit cards to the deal per the terms until the confirm address stage which is AFTER both parties have formally notified each other in the system that they are happy with the deal.

No... Cards are removed from your inventory and wishlist on Acceptance, not on Confirming Address. If Proposal/Acceptance doesn't indicate that both parties are happy then I don't know what would!

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Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

d72B wrote:
bactgudz wrote:

I wouldn't like this at all...for one thing, there are much larger lags between proposal and acceptance than acceptance and confirming addresses, thus we would be committing our cards to the void for a longer period of time...The second is that we'd be committing our cards for trade without knowing whether or not our trade partner is satisfied with the deal yet.  If the user accepts out of the blue, you'd be committed immediately...as the system works now that is not the case, you don't officially commit cards to the deal per the terms until the confirm address stage which is AFTER both parties have formally notified each other in the system that they are happy with the deal.

No... Cards are removed from your inventory and wishlist on Acceptance, not on Confirming Address. If Proposal/Acceptance doesn't indicate that both parties are happy then I don't know what would!

When proposing you don't know if they will accept yet, I don't understand why this would seem unclear to you.  I should not be committed to a trade simply by proposing it...especially if it can remain unanswered for days.

Cards are removed on acceptance, but you still have the right to cancel until confirm addresses (read the terms of service)...if you do cancel the auto-wishlist.inventory removal is reversed.

In the terms of service, the confirmation of addresses is clearly stated to be the commitment of both parties to the deal, and for good reason....if you want to confirm addresses earlier, you need to replace it with another step "commit
after propose/accept which defeats the purpose.  Combining Accept and Confim would be fine, but not propose and confirm.

Last edited by bactgudz (2014-10-30 14:28:33)

Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

You do have a point, Proposal right now is not seen as 100% committal. Hmm...

Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

Perhaps the only step that can be cut is the separate Accept/Confirm steps and leave the Proposal/Confirm steps separate.

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Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

Kammikaze wrote:

Perhaps the only step that can be cut is the separate Accept/Confirm steps and leave the Proposal/Confirm steps separate.

I think this would be fine...it would probably help too to have a visual indicator (like we do for unread messages) for trades that are awaiting address confirmation.  Right now if I propose and my partner accepts/confirms but chooses not to type anything in chat, there is no indicator from my deckbox home page that something is awaiting my attention somewhere...I have to rely on having noticed the email or open up the trade page to check.

Last edited by bactgudz (2014-10-30 15:26:54)

Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

bactgudz wrote:

Right now, if I propose a trade to a guy on Thursday and Friday night rolls around and I haven't heard anything; I am free to trade the card away at fnm and cancel in the morning.  Under the proposed plan, I either have to log on to deckbox to cancel my proposal before trading it at fnm or risk that my partner doesn't accept until next time I check deckbox....that is a huge functional change in how many people trade on this platform.

This is just bad behaviour! Cancel your proposal before you trade the cards away IRL. Now that Deckbox handles concurrent proposals with the same cards there is no excuse for having your proposed trade accepted and not having the cards anymore. Before anyone Accepts or Proposes they should confirm that they have the cards and that they are represented correctly. Too often we leave this until after a trade is committed and it makes for untracked corrections after the fact which really detracts from the Deckbox experience!

bactgudz wrote:

I should not be committed to a trade simply by proposing it...especially if it can remain unanswered for days.

I disagree completely. Committing to the trade is the whole point of Proposing! If you might trade the card IRL, don't propose. Instead just open up a trade and talk about it.

bactgudz wrote:

In the terms of service, the confirmation of addresses is clearly stated to be the commitment of both parties to the deal.

Yes this would get updated with this change! Proposing and Accepting would now encompass all actions in the trade.

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Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

It is in no way bad behavior.  Trades are asynchronous.  A commitment should be made only if BOTH parties have agreed it is acceptable.  What you are suggesting is to not have formal proposals at all, simply commitments.  This would make the first person to commit have far less information available than the second since they don't know at all if the terms are acceptable.

Heck if I'm sitting next to you in an lgs and I propose a trade to you and you say nothing or say you can't give me an answer yet...It is not bad behavior if I don't hold the card for you indefinitely or don't call you before I trade it elsewhere.

In most formal exchanges in life you have a proposal followed by a contract.  The contract is not binding until both parties agree and sign, not just the acceptor.   The only proposals that are ever binding have automatic time expiration, if deckbox wants to add that fine, but if proposals remain open-ended having them binding is silly.

Last edited by bactgudz (2014-10-30 19:02:48)

Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

bactgudz wrote:

Heck if I'm sitting next to you in an lgs and I propose a trade to you and you say nothing or say you can't give me an answer yet...It is not bad behavior if I don't hold the card for you indefinitely or don't call you before I trade it elsewhere.

In this analogy, walking away from me is Cancelling the trade proposal. If we say we'll wait on it, that's analogous to you revoking your proposal but keeping the trade open. (As an aside, could we get a Revoke Proposal button to make this clear? Right now I modify the trade to revoke the proposal, but I'm sure this isn't clear to some users.)

bactgudz wrote:

In most formal exchanges in life you have a proposal followed by a contract.  The contract is not binding until both parties agree and sign, not just the acceptor.

I think it's safe to say that you implicitly agree ("sign") the proposal that you are making. Deckbox makes trading fast, easy, and fun... not legally binding!

bactgudz wrote:

The only proposals that are ever binding have automatic time expiration, if deckbox wants to add that fine, but if proposals remain open-ended having them binding is silly.

That would be a nice feature! But it's still up to you to manage your own trades. If you want to keep your proposal open for an hour, a day, or indefinitely that's up to you. If you trade away your cards before the timer is up it's still your responsibility to revoke the proposal.

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Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

I'm with bactgudz and Kammikaze, here.  Proposal and confirmation should remain as two separate events.  Acceptance and confirmation, I'm more on the fence about.  On the one hand, it seems reasonable to require confirmation at the same time as acceptance, but on the other hand, sometimes I'm away from my collection and will accept a proposed trade, but won't confirm my address until the next day when I can pull the cards and verify that they are indeed still where I thought they were and in the condition I had listed.

Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

IronMagus wrote:

sometimes I'm away from my collection and will accept a proposed trade, but won't confirm my address until the next day when I can pull the cards and verify that they are indeed still where I thought they were and in the condition I had listed.

Should you accept a trade if you aren't sure you have the cards and that they're marked correctly? Couldn't you wait to accept until you've verified your cards? What do you do when you've accepted a trade in which your cards are misrepresented?

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Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

d72B wrote:
IronMagus wrote:

sometimes I'm away from my collection and will accept a proposed trade, but won't confirm my address until the next day when I can pull the cards and verify that they are indeed still where I thought they were and in the condition I had listed.

Should you accept a trade if you aren't sure you have the cards and that they're marked correctly? Couldn't you wait to accept until you've verified your cards? What do you do when you've accepted a trade in which your cards are misrepresented?

You bring it up and either negotiate an answer or cancel the trade.

I think there's a point here that people might be a little careless about accepting trades before verifying conditions, but as someone who's guilty of this myself I'll say that the reason why there's a rush to the acceptance stage a lot of the time is because it "locks in" the trade unless some unusual circumstances arise. Like, if a guy wants a card X and opens 10 trade proposals for them and I'm one of them, then it's tempting to accept the proposal before anyone else does even if I haven't verified the card conditions yet or whatever.

Is this bad behavior? I'm not entirely sure. The underlying issue is that people want to be able to ensure increasing degrees of commitment to the trade in discrete steps, and the way they're doing this is mapped oddly onto the current process of trading - you can accept a proposal with only a few reservations (and thus guaranteeing that your partner becomes accordingly committed to you), but exchanging the addresses creates additional commitment. And the functional value of that is fine, but it is a bit silly to tie it to the address-exchanging step. But you'd lose that functional value if you made address exchange automatic.

While we're talking about consolidating the trading process, I actually have a different suggestion: I think it might be useful to have shipping options built into the trading interface rather than have those be negotiated. ie. When you make a proposal, you would also choose a rule for who ships first and also options for how you intend to ship (tracking, insurance, etc.) and maybe for your partner as well. I think there's a tendency for awkward post-confirmation negotiations to occur when people forget to do these things upfront and it might be a good idea to force these parameters to be a part of the trade process itself.

Last edited by 9700377 (2014-10-30 20:30:05)

Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

9700377 wrote:

While we're talking about consolidating the trading process, I actually have a different suggestion: I think it might be useful to have shipping options built into the trading interface rather than have those be negotiated. ie. When you make a proposal, you would also choose a rule for who ships first and also options for how you intend to ship (tracking, insurance, etc.) and maybe for your partner as well. I think there's a tendency for awkward post-confirmation negotiations to occur when people forget to do these things upfront and it might be a good idea to force these parameters to be a part of the trade process itself.

I like this idea...check boxes for tracking, insurance, or none...and you send first, I send first or simulsend

Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

9700377 wrote:

You bring it up and either negotiate an answer or cancel the trade.

Yes and the answer will likely be to add/change cards and now the trade will contain the wrong cards and I will have to manually update my inventory when and I send and remember to manually update my inventory when I receive. Forgetting to do so means more errors in my inventory which may result in more trades where more of these answers have to be found

9700377 wrote:

Is this bad behavior? I'm not entirely sure.

The bad behaviour I was referring to was knowingly trading away cards that are in a proposal. We all make mistakes, but let's catch them early we before accept (unless Deckbox wants to implement reconfigurations after acceptance, but that's a can of worms)

9700377 wrote:

the functional value of that is fine, but it is a bit silly to tie it to the address-exchanging step. But you'd lose that functional value if you made address exchange automatic.

I think trades are simple enough that there doesn't need to be different levels of commitment. It's either configured properly for me or I'm going to counter.

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Re: Questions about the Confirm Address Step in a Trade

bactgudz wrote:
9700377 wrote:

While we're talking about consolidating the trading process, I actually have a different suggestion: I think it might be useful to have shipping options built into the trading interface rather than have those be negotiated. ie. When you make a proposal, you would also choose a rule for who ships first and also options for how you intend to ship (tracking, insurance, etc.) and maybe for your partner as well. I think there's a tendency for awkward post-confirmation negotiations to occur when people forget to do these things upfront and it might be a good idea to force these parameters to be a part of the trade process itself.

I like this idea...check boxes for tracking, insurance, or none...and you send first, I send first or simulsend

This is great! Each trader could have

  • Ships first

  • Ships with tracking

  • Ships with insurance

  • Ships with signature required on delivery

  • Ships via courier (as opposed to regular mail)

  • Ships by: <date>

  • Packaging request: <text instructions>

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