Hey guys,

Faced another issue yesterday. I was at 5 life points, and my opponent 11.
I have an 11/11, two 2/2, and 8 1/1s.
I attack full force to end the game but he does Deflecting palm on my 11/11.

Who wins?
Do tie exist in MTG?

Thanks

Well, since the 11 damage gets reflected back to you, the other person would win. Also yes, ties exist and in my opinion are worse than losing. But that's just me :D

skull_king wrote:Well, since the 11 damage gets reflected back to you, the other person would win.

No, the 11 damage would be redirected at the same time as the other combat damage. So you would take 11 damage from the Deflecting Palm and your opponent would take 12 from the rest of the combat damage, resulting in a tie.

Edit: It's possible I'm wrong here. It's possible the Deflecting Palm damage would happen before the rest of combat damage. Would need a rules judge to verify one way or the other.

skull_king wrote:Also yes, ties exist and in my opinion are worse than losing. But that's just me big_smile

In most (all that I've seen, but I guess there could be exceptions) a tie is better than a loss. Generally going 2-1-1 will get a prize (or a better prize, depending on the LGS) while 2-2 will not and 3-0-1 will have a better prize than 3-1. Just my experience.

skull_king wrote:Also yes, ties exist and in my opinion are worse than losing. But that's just me big_smile

In most (all that I've seen, but I guess there could be exceptions) a tie is better than a loss. Generally going 2-1-1 will get a prize (or a better prize, depending on the LGS) while 2-2 will not and 3-0-1 will have a better prize than 3-1. Just my experience.

Well, I'm speaking in more of a "pride" term. Yes, in that case it's better but kind of embarrassing in my opinion.

My questioning results of this logic: in order for Deflecting Palm to be triggered, you need to deal damage. If you deal damage, but also take damage as a result, then damage is applied at the same time everywhere? If that's the case, then it was a tie?

Jay4prez wrote:My questioning results of this logic: in order for Deflecting Palm to be triggered, you need to deal damage. If you deal damage, but also take damage as a result, then damage is applied at the same time everywhere? If that's the case, then it was a tie?

That was my reasoning as well.

Kammikaze wrote: Edit: It's possible I'm wrong here. It's possible the Deflecting Palm damage would happen before the rest of combat damage. Would need a rules judge to verify one way or the other.

You're not wrong. Well, not entirely. Technically the Deflecting Palm damage happens after the rest of the combat damage, but the game still ends in a draw. Here's how the sequence of events breaks down:

- Attacking player declares attackers, gets priority, passes priority.

- Defending player gets priority, casts Deflecting Palm, gets priority again, passes priority.

- Attacking player gets priority, passes priority.

- Deflecting Palm resolves.
-- Defending player chooses 11/11 creature as the source to be prevented.

- Attacking player gets priority, passes priority.

- Defending player gets priority, passes priority.

- Game moves to declare blockers step.
-- Both players receive and pass priority, in order.

- Game moves to combat damage step.
-- 23 damage "would" be dealt to defending player, but 11 of that is prevented by Deflecting Palm's prevention effect.
--- Only 12 damage is dealt to defending player. Defending player's life total becomes -1. GAME DOES NOT END.
-- Then, Deflecting Palm deals 11 damage to attacking player from the other part of its effect.
--- Attacking player's life total becomes -6. GAME STILL DOES NOT END.

- Just before attacking player would receive priority in the Combat Damage step, state-based actions are performed.
-- First, the game decides which state-based actions are to be performed:
--- Attacking player's life total is zero or less and attacking player loses the game.
--- Defending player's life total is zero or less and defending player loses the game.
-- Then, those actions occur at the same time:
--- Both players lose the game simultaneously.

- Then, since all players remaining in the game have lost simultaneously, the game ends in a draw.

Source: CompRules at http://wizards.com/magic/rules; past experience as a former rules advisor (i.e. basically a "level zero" judge.)

In most (all that I've seen, but I guess there could be exceptions) a tie is better than a loss. Generally going 2-1-1 will get a prize (or a better prize, depending on the LGS) while 2-2 will not and 3-0-1 will have a better prize than 3-1. Just my experience.

In tournament play, a match win is worth 3 points, a tie is worth 1 point, and a loss is worth zero points so in this case, a tie is certainly better than a loss. Tied games, on the other hand, do not count for anything, and are treated as if they never occurred. Still, though, a tied game (or "non-game," if you will) is better than an actual loss, as far as winning the match is concerned.

IronMagus wrote:Technically the Deflecting Palm damage happens after the rest of the combat damage, but the game still ends in a draw.

True.

Comp. Rules 615.5: Some prevention effects also include an additional effect, which may refer to the amount of damage that was prevented. The prevention takes place at the time the original event would have happened; the rest of the effect takes place immediately afterward.

IronMagus wrote:Source: ... past experience as a former rules advisor (i.e. basically a "level zero" judge.)

I'd say that it is a level 0.5 judge (there is an exam)
So between the two of us we make a level 1 judge :D