Topic: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

Good evening everyone! I'm new to paper magic, having just picked the game up in the last week after a few months of playing Duels of the Planeswalkers. Anyway, I'm looking to build a Dimir mill/control deck that will be Standard legal after the Innistrad block rotates out. I know Theros will be around then, but I'm just trying to get the skeleton going, as I plan to check out FNM standard after the rotation. I'll be doing FNM Draft until then. What I've come up after a hefty dose of research online is below. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

http://deckbox.org/sets/431890

P.S., any good, cheap targeted removal that works on black creatures? Doom Blade is cheap, but I'm worried about the popularity of black because it's solid and popular in the DoTP games.

Last edited by Watcheswhenup (2013-09-18 12:07:27)

Re: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

Just want to make it clear that RTR isn't going anywhere.  Ravnica Block will be here for the next 14 months.  It's innistrad block and m13 that are rotating out at the end of September.

You also can't base your strategy for playing with cards on DOTP.  It's leagues different in a real competitive environment. Cards that are in the game are _not_ cards irl.

Doom blade is fine removal, but for decks like this you want to diversify your removal package.  So, you should run 1 maybe 2 doomblades, you're trying to mill them out which is barely a valid strategy right now.  It may come into play more post rotation, we'll have to see. I hesitate to give advice about rotation because we don't know what theros will bring.


Land - your land seems fine if you really don't want to pick up anything that's not rotation.
2 Dimir Guildgate
9 Island
9 Swamp
4 Watery Grave

SPells - Mill decks need to control the game first, mill your opponent 2nd.  I also wouldn't go all in on the mill, but leave it as one possible outlet for winning.

2 Tome Scour - cut this, for some sort of draw engine.  Control decks win off the back of card advantage.  Milling your opponent doesn't give you card advantage. .
4 Breaking // Entering - again, doesn't control the game, doesnt provide card advanatage.
2 Doom Blade - good spot removal
3 Mind Grind - you can run this as a 1 of/2 of finisher, 3 is too much here.  You need cards that lock down the board more.
2 Far // Away - good removal and effect, needs to a 4 of.
3 Pilfered Plans - this does a little of both, it draws and mills, you really want to see your draw cards as instants though, right now that limits you to nothing good.
4 Psychic Strike - seems fine. but you want to diversify your counters a little more.  syncopate exiles, this is important effect.
2 Traumatize - this will not win you the game.  It only shortens the amount of mill you need, but does nothing else for you.  If you play this against some decks they will just laugh in your face tongue

Creatures
3 Wall of Frost - i would like to see some vampire nighthawks, but if you really don't want to include anything I guess this guys okay.  You might look into the new lifebane zombie and the new blue guy that taps down creatures.
3 Crypt Ghast - I see where your going with cryptghast, but I think you'd be better served by a couple more desecration demons.
2 Desecration Demon- your best creature for value.  needs to be a 4 of.
2 Consuming Aberration - he's okay.  Not good, not terrible...

walkers
2 Liliana of the Dark Realms - okay walker, no lili of the veil though
2 Jace, Memory Adept - work horse, jace is what you want to play to close the game.


Additions.
Jace architect of thought, huge draw engine advantage, and aggro dampener. a must include in this deck.
aetherling. Diversify your win conditions.  If they out control you or you stumble then you need a backup.  (replace aberration with this).
dimir charm, is a solid card... need to include these.
syncopate
escence scatter, is cheap.
claustraphobia

keep in mind you have no lifegain right now so you need to be able to remove all their threats pretty quick.  There isn't a real "sweaper" for you if you don't include mutilate.

Re: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

Watcheswhenup wrote:

Good evening everyone! I'm new to paper magic, having just picked the game up in the last week after a few months of playing Duels of the Planeswalkers. Anyway, I'm looking to build a Dimir mill/control deck that will be Standard legal after the Innistrad block rotates out. I know Theros will be around then, but I'm just trying to get the skeleton going, as I plan to check out FNM standard after the rotation. I'll be doing FNM Draft until then. What I've come up after a hefty dose of research online is below. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

http://deckbox.org/sets/431890

P.S., any good, cheap targeted removal that works on black creatures? Doom Blade is cheap, but I'm worried about the popularity of black because it's solid and popular in the DoTP games.

It is really hard to make a post-rotation deck pre-rotation. You basically choose not to play 1/2 of the available cards, many of which are good. You are better off not playing standard until rotation if you don't want to aquire cards that are going to rotate soon because your deck won't be as good as someone who is playing with those cards + RTR block & m14.

If you are already planning on not playing constructed until Theros comes out, why worry about it now? It is impossible to predict what decks will even be viable post-rotation. BU might be great or terrible, we won't know until we see the Theros cards. If you like blue and black, just draft it a lot have the cards available to make blue and black decks after rotation.

Last edited by jassi007 (2013-07-24 13:59:07)

Profile|Tradelist|Wishlist

Re: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

jassi007 wrote:

It is really hard to make a post-rotation deck pre-rotation. You basically choose not to play 1/2 of the available cards, many of which are good. You are better off not playing standard until rotation if you don't want to aquire cards that are going to rotate soon because your deck won't be as good as someone who is playing with those cards + RTR block & m14.

If you are already planning on not playing constructed until Theros comes out, why worry about it now? It is impossible to predict what decks will even be viable post-rotation. BU might be great or terrible, we won't know until we see the Theros cards. If you like blue and black, just draft it a lot have the cards available to make blue and black decks after rotation.

I really concur with Jassi....

Re: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

Good morning! As suggested, I decided to wait until after Theros was spoiled to revisit this thread. Now that it has been, I've retooled the deck based on the extremely constructive criticism I was afforded. Thanks a ton everyone. It's amazing how different, yet more effective things are (based on Cockatrice play). Now, I'm just looking to fine-tune things in preparation for starting Standard. Without further ado, my revised deck.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/theros-d … llcontrol/

As always, thanks for any help in advance. Oh, and special mention goes to Elpablo whose advice has proven invaluable thus far. smile

Re: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

Hey, glad I could help.  The deck looks okay seems like it would play pretty consictently.  Looks like you're fine tuning now...

I might diversify your removal pakage a little more, I would include 1-2 of the new heros downfall, for plainswalkers.  I'm always scared to run 4 doomblades incase you see that mono black.deck. 

Blue didn't get a good replacement for thinktwice unfortunetly, but I still think you need a tad more draw card utility,  you might try read the bones since your in black, or inspiration. 

I like a couple thought seize maindeck, just my $.02.  And since black didn't get a sweeper, what are you doing about fast agro decks?

Re: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

Indeed. My current thoughts are as follows:

1) I chose to mainboard Doom Blade x4 over Hero's Downfall because it requires me to hold less mana open, and I can kill stuff one turn sooner if needed. I don't know how popular black will be as a color in general, but if it proves common, then Hero's Downfall will move to the mainboard and Doom Blade or Ultimate Price to the sideboard.

2) Planeswalkers are a bit of a concern to me, but I'm hoping my counterspells will be enough for most match-ups.

1+2a) Both points being said, I'll try swapping 2 Doom Blades for 2 Hero's Downfalls in the mainboard. My only concerns are slowing down the deck's removal and mana bottlenecks. Also, I'm a little uneasy with a double-black requirement so early, since the deck is slanted heavily toward blue.

3) I definitely would like a bit more drawing in the deck, but I'm not sure what to cut for it. I'm not really feeling Read the Bones (Scry 2 is nice, but 2 life and Sorcery speed are not), but I like Inspiration (thanks for that one, didn't know about this card). As an aside, Jace actually spends most of his time drawing me cards as opposed to milling with his +0 ability. I generally don't mill with him unless I'm comfortable with what's in my hand (translated: I have a kill or counterspell to deal with my opponent's next threat).

4) My only real answer to fast aggro decks is AEtherize. I mainboard 2 as a "just in case" but have 2 more in the sideboard in the event I find I am facing an aggro deck. It seems my best option for now without tri-coloring the deck for Supreme Verdict. I'm really hoping Damnation shows up in one of the block's remaining sets.

My overall strategy right now is to run a somewhat generalized version of the deck then sideboard to taste based on what the first game tells me about my opponent. For instance, in a creature-light, control mirror, the Essence Scatters and AEtherizes come out for Negate and Thoughtseize. The Doom Blades would likely be swapped for Hero's Downfalls as well. For an aggro deck, the Syncopates would likely come out for the additional 2 AEtherizes. Hope this gives a bit more insight into my thoughts and strategies. As always, thanks a ton for all of your help! smile I know I'm still green as sin, so I truly appreciate it.

Re: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

Watcheswhenup wrote:

3) I definitely would like a bit more drawing in the deck, but I'm not sure what to cut for it. I'm not really feeling Read the Bones (Scry 2 is nice, but 2 life and Sorcery speed are not)

True, sorcery speed is a bit lame, but the ability to set up future draws is huge. Here's what will happen with Read the Bones:

1) Two good cards on top, keep them both.

2) One good one and one bad one, keep the good one, and go one card deeper

3) Two bad cards, lay possible flooding, and you cycle them out to see 4 cards off 3 mana

Setting up your draws is crucial card advantage, arguably more powerful then the draw itself. This card does both. At its worst you see 4 cards, at its best you pick up two more needed spells, and then possibly draw a 3rd your next turn. With the way aggro decks can be lately you can't afford to have too many bad draws

Last edited by Profanity (2013-09-18 14:08:03)

Re: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

Thanks for the insight! I'm going to give Read the Bones a try over Inspiration. I've really enjoyed the Scry mechanic thus far after all. So, maybe Sorcery speed won't be so bad. Now, I just have to figure out what to cut to squeeze in a little extra card-draw.

Re: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

Remember the better your card draw/quality the faster you can find your answers so you can cut some of the removal/counters here no problem. 

One note on heroes down fall.  Holding open 3 mana, 1 dual, 1 swamp, 1 island, represents a counter and removal... strategically it's the right call to leave as much open as possible because if you only leave 2 open your kind of tipping your hand a little.

Also... against aggro, jace, AoT helps and he can provide excellent card advantage.  I'd play him over the new walker all day every day.

Last edited by elpablo (2013-09-18 14:36:57)

Re: [Theros Standard] Dimir Mill/Control Help

Thanks for all of the help thus far. I've made a few changes based on the feedback. They are summarized below.

Mainboard
+2 Hero's Downfall, -2 Doom Blade
+2 Read the Bones, -1 Omenspeaker, -1 Essence Scatter

Sideboard
+2 Doom Blade, -2 Hero's Downfall
+3 Jace, Architect of Thought

The Hero's Downfall/Doom Blade bit was simply a mainboard/sideboard trade. The deck retains access to four of each card. Read the Bones was/is tough. I don't really want to drop to playing only one of any given card. So, that really only left Dissolve, Essence Scatter, Far // Away, and Omenspeaker as trim options. Of those options, Omenspeaker and Essence Scatter seemed the best places to trim for room to include Read the Bones. Though, the early body can help against aggro. So, I don't know. Finally, Jace AoT was added to sideboard rather than mainboard because I really like Ashiok so far, and he can't coexist with Jace MA. Both Jaces can draw cards, but only Jace MA furthers one of this deck's win conditions. Jace AoT dampens aggro, so he seems a good sideboard there. His card drawing could be a boon in the control mirror as well. So, he'd probably come in there too.

Edit 1: For what it's worth, I'm not particularly attached to Dimir Charm. It's okay but underwhelming in my book. Considering cutting the Dimir Charms for one more Read the Bones and a fourth Omenspeaker.

Last edited by Watcheswhenup (2013-09-18 16:31:04)