Topic: Tuning up for GP Vancouver

So I'm in Vancouver for the year and, well, isn't it my luck that the last standard constructed GP before Born of the Gods is released is in my backyard...

I could easily sleeve up mono-black or go net-deck half a dozen other things.  I have G/R devotion sleeved up already just for fun, but I wanted to bring something different to the table in the hopes of catching people off guard.

As such, I present to you my Junk Build:

http://deckbox.org/sets/578853

So, the deck in a nutshell... Combine Advent of the Wurm + Reaper of the Wilds + Obzedat, Ghost Council + Whip of Erebos with some of the best removal in the format... shake, win.

More seriously, this deck has played REALLY well for me as of late, being able to take down any home-brew, Orzhov aggro humans, G/R devotion, R/W devotion, U/W control, and Esper Control... but it has struggled against mono-black and mono-blue (go figure, the two biggest decks in the standard metagame).  I've recently adjusted the counts to include 2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa, 2x Hero's Downfall, 3x Underworld Connections, 3x Pack Rat in the SB, and an additional 2x Golgari Charm in the SB to boost these match-ups.

How do these help?

Blood Baron is a total beast against mono-black (pending I have some other creature on the field).  Realistically, he won't be alone on my field and can just be the nasty beat-stick I need to pull ahead.  That in mind, he's mostly for mono-black, but he's also quite the problem for most decks to deal with (he's sitting at $17 for a reason, right?).

Hero's Downfall - given the fact I was running 2x Putrefy and a 3rd Obzedat before, I found that I'd have to attack into too many PWs when I'd rather be doing damage and the mono-colored kill option helps against Soldier of the Pantheon given that almost all of my creatures are multicolored.  But more to the point, taking out Jace, AOT will prove quite useful as will the added removal more generally.

Underworld Connections - who doesn't like card advantage?  Between Blood Baron, Obzedat and Whip of Erebos I'm not exactly scared of a little life loss to keep up the draws.  More amusingly, post sideboard I can name Swamp with Pithing Needle to turn off the mono-black opponent's connections while mine are on one of my other colored lands.

Pack Rat - I really don't like having to do this, but against mono-black I found myself often just losing straight up to the fact I couldn't wipe out more than one rat easily.... so if you can't beat them, why not join em?  Toss in the advantage it gives me in aggro matchups AND the fact that it'll help me with flooding, why not?

Golgari Charm - Want to just mess up your average aggro player?  Have you noticed how many x/1 creatures they tend to run?  This is the closest thing I have to a board wipe (man would Bile Blight or Drown in Sorrow be welcome about now).  The added versatility against control (regen and enchantment removal) is just gravy.

Other relevant decisions:

I'm sure at least one of you out there is going to go "but you don't have Thoughtseize in there!"  While you are completely correct, I originally had 2x in the SB, but I found that it would only stall things in most instances.  If there's a problem card in their deck, they're running more than one... meaning that me making them discard it probably doesn't get me as far as I'd like.  Combine that with the fact that, while life totals really don't worry me much, paying ANOTHER two life for one spell when I'm sitting on 12 shocks and UC already is a bit sketchy... I needn't kill myself for them, right?

Dark Betrayal, Pithing Needle, Mistcutter Hydra, Skylasher, and Sin Collector in the board - these are match-up specific and I feel they should serve me well, but if someone can think of a better piece to slide in here, I'm all ears... Pithing Needle is arguably one of the BEST SB cards available at the moment... being able to name Elspeth or Elixir of Immortality can actually single-handedly win against U/W control (or at least require them to use a Detention Sphere on that rather than a threat - for which I have answers).

Ready // Willing I'm sure someone will likely look at this one, scratch their head and go "why run this?" It's actually a solid card given my setup.  I've NEVER had issues with the colors to cast it and, more to the point, it gives me a very powerful trick.  In almost every scenario where I've played this, it's a blowout in my favor.  Attack the opponent because they have fatal on the board if they can get through... they think it's their lucky day.  But note that Ready not only makes your guys indestructible (relevant against control), but it UNTAPS them.  So now those 3 attackers I had are indestructible blockers.  If I have the six to fuse it, well, Vault of the Archangel was pretty good... now attach it to indestructibility while giving your guys vigilance on their attack... yeah... it's solid.  And, in match-ups where it isn't, it's nice to have a card you KNOW to SB out.

So I feel like I've written a book here and I'm sure just about everyone won't read all of this, but I'm looking to see if anyone has any last minute suggestions.  I'm not 100% set on this list, but am very close.

Ideas?

Re: Tuning up for GP Vancouver

This may just be me, but I would swap out the Putrefy for a 3rd Abrupt Decay.

Right now, aside from Bident and Whip, Abrupt Decay hits every artifact that you should see, and the 1 mana saved could be worth it. Though if you're really concerned about these 2 weapons, go ahead and keep it.

Also, Why no Loxodon smiter?

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Re: Tuning up for GP Vancouver

I could make the swap the Putrefy but I just liked the unconditional removal of a creature, even one with regen... but I'm open on that front.

As for the Smiters, what exactly would I remove for it?  My three spot is filled with removal and such, and with a T2 Sylvan Caryatid I jump right to the four with Reaper, Advent and whatnot.

Re: Tuning up for GP Vancouver

Overall I like the midrange feel of Junk, I wish it had the new lands from Born of the Gods already.  hmm

Aside from a slightly shakier mana base, I think the deck is okay.  I like midrange decks with decent removal and bombs.   I do like the golgari charms and abrupt decays.  Abrupt decay hits a decent amount of stuff right now, domri, specter, sphere, any number of weenie drops.

I have been playing mono black, splash blue, splash white, splash nothing... without gary, with gary... etc... the deck doesn't get there for me.  I took it to GP FW to a 4-3 finish and have had mixed success at the local store.  It doesn't feel like it has what it takes, i honestly don't know how it puts up consistent results at big tournaments. I'm with you on trying something a little different.

Here's a couple questions. 

1. Why 3 whips?  You're gaining enough life imo, with ghost dad and baron.  Also, playing 3 golgari charms main deck _should_ be enough regenerate to save your dudes from a board wipe or spot removal. The whip/ghost dad combo is neat and if you're running the dad, I think you should run a whip to respect the combo, but 3 feels excessive.

2. are you sure you have enough answers to the big dudes?  Master of waves, descration demons, dragons, etc... I think in the format, if you're not runing 4 down falls you're not respecting the big guys enough not to mention all the walkers.

3. How is ready/willing working out for you?  I have to say it doesn't see much play and I haven't seen it interact with enough cards to know how to evaluate it.

4. Also, i think 25 lands here... at least, even with the caryatids.  You've got sinks in the form of reaper activated abilities, whip activations, spot removal and you have to remember that underworld connections basically read, pay 1 mana and 1 life to draw a card.

Re: Tuning up for GP Vancouver

I like the 2 Selesnya Charms in the sideboard, but I think you should have 2 more main.  I'd trade out the 3rd Golgari Charm and the 3rd Whip of Erebos.

The instant speed of removing a God as soon as it gets turned on is huge, especially against that tough Mono-Blue matchup.  Also against Mono-Black whacking their Desecration Demon while their Gary is on the stack is gold especially if they were counting on that additional 2 points of damage and lifegain (4 point life swing and their Demon is gone). 

It's one of the best cards for your toughest matchups and is great utility in pretty much all matchups.

It can also help save your Obzedat, 5/5 Wurm token, or Blood Baron against that "well-timed" Devour Flesh by putting the 2/2 Knight out at instant speed to sacrifice it instead. 

Lastly it can help you push Ghost Dad through by giving him trample.  You can possibly even "bluff" Ghost Dad in for 5 against an unbuffed Demon if you have cards in hand and make a little show of reserving {W}{G} mana off to the side.  Mono-Black is frequently willing to take a hit instead of possibly putting their Demon at risk because of their confidence in drawing a Gary to swing the game. 

I love the Ready // Willing idea here.  Even with just a single Wurm Token on board a fused Ready // Willing is at minimum a 4 damage to the face 5 point life gain (9 point life swing in your favor), destruction of a blocker and you have an untapped 5/5 ready to block during their turn.  It's glorious and at least in game 1 going to be unexpected.

If you're getting aggro'd too fast for it to be relevant as a fuse it has utility to save your creatures or deathtouch/lifelink block theirs to extend the game until you draw into something that helps you stabilize.  Worst case scenario if it's dead in your hand because of the mana or any other reason it can be Pack Rat food. 

The instant deathtouch will probably down a demon or two for the price of a Packrat every now and then as well.

Re: Tuning up for GP Vancouver

I'd like to start off saying thanks for actually reading the big block of text I posted... sadly this forum seems to boil down to 3-4 of us carrying the load commenting on a bunch of new kid decks sad .

That being said, I'll start off responding to elpablo and then onto drock007's comments.

elpablo wrote:

Aside from a slightly shakier mana base, I think the deck is okay.  I like midrange decks with decent removal and bombs.   I do like the golgari charms and abrupt decays.  Abrupt decay hits a decent amount of stuff right now, domri, specter, sphere, any number of weenie drops.

I have been playing mono black, splash blue, splash white, splash nothing... without gary, with gary... etc... the deck doesn't get there for me.  I took it to GP FW to a 4-3 finish and have had mixed success at the local store.  It doesn't feel like it has what it takes, i honestly don't know how it puts up consistent results at big tournaments. I'm with you on trying something a little different.

To be honest, I wanted to use something a little bit different.  I was on the fence about running a Rakdos control build until I discovered that it just cannot win the mono-black matchup as currently constituted (which is no bueno).  But that aside, the mana base has seldom given me problems.  I can say that Caryatid is an all star in my books, it is sooooooo nice against aggro and easily fixes the colors for a nice T4 Ghost Dad or Blood Baron.

I still think mono-black is THE deck moving forward, but that's only if people actually think outside the box a bit.  Mono-black + Rise of the Dark Realms and Nykthos just sounds hilarious... literally nobody would see it coming AND you get added value out of all that spot removal... then again, that might be a bit fantastical... in either respect, Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow will made the deck all but unbeatable at current.

elpablo wrote:

1. Why 3 whips?  You're gaining enough life imo, with ghost dad and baron.  Also, playing 3 golgari charms main deck _should_ be enough regenerate to save your dudes from a board wipe or spot removal. The whip/ghost dad combo is neat and if you're running the dad, I think you should run a whip to respect the combo, but 3 feels excessive.

I'd be open to going down to two, but man that added lifelink is amazing.  Swing in with Reaper and Obie, gain 9?  Sure.  I mean I guess I could move one to the SB but I know that the life-gain is almost essential to survival given the fact that the deck is so lacking in sweepers.  To this end, I can actually say I've won entire matchups simply because nobody plans for Whip and it makes that much of a difference.  The Ghost-Dad combo is just the added gravy here.

elpablo wrote:

2. are you sure you have enough answers to the big dudes?  Master of waves, descration demons, dragons, etc... I think in the format, if you're not runing 4 down falls you're not respecting the big guys enough not to mention all the walkers.

I'm also with you here about the count of removal, but I feel that I actually have a lot of favorable trades in terms of combat.  Flash in wurms are often as good as a removal spell, Golgari Charm can act as a small-scale board wipe, Reaper deathtouch to trade often 2-for-1, and of course Ready // Willing are all solid actions on my part.  With regard to dealing with the big dudes, to some degree, I can bank on whip and lifelink letting me ignore the random big dude here or there as no matter whether they're hitting for 4 or 6, if I can crack back and gain 7 on the next turn I'm golden.

For the demons in particular, I have Putrefy, 2x Downfall, 3x Devour Flesh, 2x Dark Betrayal, and 2x Selesnya Charm total... so I don't envision them being a problem.  Master of Waves falls to Putrefy, Downfall, and Golgari Charm.  Stormbreath is probably the biggest pest of the batch... I have 2x Downfall and sadly won't have the opportunity to get 2x more for this weekend, but I can see where you're coming from on this point.

elpablo wrote:

3. How is ready/willing working out for you?  I have to say it doesn't see much play and I haven't seen it interact with enough cards to know how to evaluate it.

This card is either AMAZING or a total miss.  I like this fact as it can easily let me blow the opponent out in combat, survive sweepers, experience a HUGE life swing, or just have an easily identifiable option to move to the SB in game 2.  That being said, it's not a commonly played card and I'm actually not surprised given that Junk really doesn't see much play more generally.  Having said all that, it beats Rootborn Defenses in the sense that I can untap my guys (sure populate would be nice if I have a wurm, but there are lots of times when I dont), but the ability to turn my Pack Rats into little deathtouch, lifelink removal missiles is nice, along with the sudden burst of life if I don't have whip out.

elpablo wrote:

4. Also, i think 25 lands here... at least, even with the caryatids.  You've got sinks in the form of reaper activated abilities, whip activations, spot removal and you have to remember that underworld connections basically read, pay 1 mana and 1 life to draw a card.

Interestingly enough, I don't think I would go to 25 just because of how frequently I flood out with this deck.  I don't understand it myself, but I actually added Underworld Connections because I was just flooding out game-after-game-after-game.

To drock007's point about Selesnya Charm - I had two in the mainboard along side 2x Golgari Charm for the longest time, but I found that often it really just didn't get the job done.  It's definitely in the SB for the purposes of exiling the off chance god or demon, but really, it just seemed like it was under-performing for me.  I'm certainly aware of its ability to circumvent Devour Flesh and have plans of siding them both in against Mono-black, as, to be honest, I would likely yank 2x Golgari Charm for that matchup anyway.


So my current thinking, would I be better served to swap one whip over to the board in favor of 1x Ultimate Price?  And then, would it make sense to swap the 2x Dark Betrayal for another 2x Ultimate Price?  My thinking is that offers me an added touch of removal against the bigger threats (see demon/stormbreath/polukranos/arbor colossus/Master of Waves) but would also give me the ability to deal with perhaps my biggest annoyance, Soldier of the Pantheon (sweet lord does that pro-multi-colored piss me off).  Sure, they cost one more than betrayal, but isn't the added versatility worth that added cost?  Thoughts?

I really do appreciate the input guys...

Re: Tuning up for GP Vancouver

I think if you're looking at additional removal ultimate price is very good.  Most of the biggest threats to you are mono colored creatures and you don't have a lot of good ways to block fliers so efficient removal for the fliers in the meta is good.

I think 1 charm, 1 whip for a couple ultimate price would help. 

I have a 5th hero's downfall and I'd totally let you borrow it tongue     I think, I might go down to 1 ready/willing as a surprise "oops" i win type card, and try to squeeze in another downfall if you can borrow/find one, or at least another putrefy.  I don't think I'd get rid of dark betrayal,  monoblack and orzhov control make up a decent portion of the top tier meta. 

I have a set of reapers and I'm just waiting to play them.  IDK if the time is right yet, there are a lot of aggressively costed 4/5 drops still in the meta that just don't favorably trade with her. Not to mention imo, she's really a "6" drop, I think being able to give her immediate hexproof when she comes down can make for a 2/1 scenario in your favor, but without it, she's just another target.

Hopefully this works out for you.

I'll be trying mono black again once the new "sweepers" are out from BTG.

Last edited by elpablo (2014-01-21 13:56:52)