elpablo wrote:now... in the trostani example, if you cast heliod and with 4 devotion on the field counting the 2 devotion from trostini you still _do not_ get the etb effect from trostani... because... due to the layering rules and 614.12 below (specifically "as it would exist on the battlefield"), he doesn't become a creature until after he enters the battlefield increasing the deovtion to 5, thus trostani can't "see" him enter the battlefield as a creature. If the devotion was 5 already then trostanis' etb effect would trigger and you would gain the life.
This is wrong. 614.12 is referring to replacement effects that modify "how" a permanent enters the battlefield such as, for example, something entering the battlefield tapped (instead of untapped), or with counters on (instead of with no counters). This doesn't apply here at all, since Heliod doesn't even have any replacement effects (let alone ones that modify how it enters the battlefield), as defined in 614.1:
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen — they aren’t locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like “shields” around whatever they’re affecting.
614.1a Effects that use the word “instead” are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word “instead” to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.
614.1b Effects that use the word “skip” are replacement effects. These replacement effects use the word “skip” to indicate what events, steps, phases, or turns will be replaced with nothing.
614.1c Effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ,” or “[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . ” are replacement effects.
614.1d Continuous effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . .” or “[Objects] enter the battlefield . . .” are replacement effects.
614.1e Effects that read “As [this permanent] is turned face up . . . ,” are replacement effects.
Heliod's ability is simply "always on" while he's on the battlefield. So if your devotion to white is four and then you cast Heliod, then after he resolves and enters the battlefield your devotion will be five and he will be a creature. There is no point in time when Heliod is on the field already, and your devotion is still less than five, and so likewise, there is no point in time when he is on the field, and is not yet a creature. He will have entered the battlefield as a creature, and anything that triggers when a creature enters the battlefield will "see" him enter and will trigger appropriately. There's even an entry in the Theros set FAQ which covers this exact scenario (bolding mine, for emphasis):
If a God enters the battlefield, your devotion to its color (including the mana symbols in the mana cost of the God itself) will determine if a creature entered the battlefield or not, for abilities that trigger whenever a creature enters the battlefield.
In regards to the original question, though, no. If your devition to white (after Heliod resolves) is still four or less, then no creature will have entered the battlefield, and Trostani's ability will not be triggered.
Last edited by IronMagus (2014-10-16 22:00:10)
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