Hello everybody,

As users trade more and more on deckbox, we feel some features and information on best practices should be addressed.

I'm making this post as sort of a 'next features' announcements, to let you know that we are consolidating some information on how to handle trading and trading disputes. (The current trade guidelines, as you know, are present here: http://deckbox.org/help/trade). Until we add more information do not hesitate to email us at support@deckbox.org if you feel a trade has been not fair. We will moderate a discussion and assign correct feedbacks.

Trade feedback will come more to the front as well. We are considering adding a user's feedback directly to his profile, and also displaying a "percent positive" rating much like ebay has. These scores will be displayed next to a user's name in all listings and of course on profiles. We want to encourage fair trading, so we're making feedback count!

As always, let us know what you think of these future changes, or what else you would like to see implemented.

Thanks!

[Edit] I've made a new post with more ideas that we are currently considering here: http://deckbox.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=26094#p26094[/Edit]

I'm unsure on your policy regarding in-person trades. Whether or not you want us to be able to rate them or not, and if they should be counted. I know this isn't strictly related to disputes, but it is related to how we rate each others trades and in that context it may be relevant.

Personally I think we should be able to rate them, and have them counted separately from mail trades (So two different stats). Reason being that some of us might be willing to travel to do a trade in person if we live in an area where people are spread out and not likely to meet at an LGS on a regular basis but might be able to meet up for a good trade. This is true for me in Los Angeles, where I recently had a mail trade with someone but when we realized we were within 40 miles of each other we opted to meet in person instead (Of course we didn't know this until we had both exchanged addresses). This should probably be classified as an in-person trade not a mail trade but there was no way to change it at that point.

Other scenarios where I might see this being useful is if two people agree to meet at an event, such as a Grand Prix or a Star City Open. It would be nice to know if the person has a good history of showing up for the trade with the cards in hand if we're going to make that trip.

...

Beyond that, as others have said elsewhere I agree that we shouldn't rate people badly for trading slow. As long as no one has sent cards in the mail and it's just taking a long time for people to come to a decision, we shouldn't be rating people badly for that as no one got ripped off. It's annoying sure, and maybe there should be ways to rate people besides just +1 and -1 like: Fast trade/Slow Trade, Good Shipping/Poor Shipping, Honest Trade/Ripped Off.

Good point on the fast / slow trading.

There is the possibility to add an Overall feedback rating, and also detailed ones like "Condition of cards" "Speed of delivery" "Packaging". Would that help?

Whops I accidentally hit report post instead of quote (Was trying to reply to your post specifically), please ignore that sorry.

Here is my reply:

I think that would help. Regarding a condition of cards though; I would be careful about that, people should only rate it poorly if they are in a condition different from what was described or pictured. It would also help if the site encouraged people to post pictures of their cards during the trade negotiation (Hosting the image would be nice too even if only temporarily, or make it easy to use an outside hosting service and we just put in multiple URLs for our cards).

sebi wrote:Good point on the fast / slow trading.

There is the possibility to add an Overall feedback rating, and also detailed ones like "Condition of cards" "Speed of delivery" "Packaging". Would that help?

A nice scale of 1-5 in these areas would be super.

You should not be able to leave negative or positive feedback for a canceled trade, especially if addresses were never exchanged.

Is there any way to provide negative feedback without canceling the trade?

Once it's cancelled, it drops off the list of trades that people would see, so I worry that negative feedback wouldn't be too helpful. Otherwise, I can click I "received" the cards (I didn't), but I still can't leave feedback until they do the same thing.

marumari wrote:Is there any way to provide negative feedback without canceling the trade?

Once it's cancelled, it drops off the list of trades that people would see, so I worry that negative feedback wouldn't be too helpful. Otherwise, I can click I "received" the cards (I didn't), but I still can't leave feedback until they do the same thing.

Hmm, this is a very good point.

I think the issue is that we have to distinguish between 2 situations.

A "canceled trade" which was closed because it was abandoned or someone changed their mind. These kinds of trades should not count as feedback.

On the other hand, a trade that has been canceled after being accepted by both parties, should count. If it's accepted, there has to be a serious reason for cancelation, and feedback is important then.

We'll think about it a little, but I would change the feedback system in this way, making the "accept" button more important.

sebi wrote:

marumari wrote:Is there any way to provide negative feedback without canceling the trade?

Once it's cancelled, it drops off the list of trades that people would see, so I worry that negative feedback wouldn't be too helpful. Otherwise, I can click I "received" the cards (I didn't), but I still can't leave feedback until they do the same thing.

Hmm, this is a very good point.

I think the issue is that we have to distinguish between 2 situations.

A "canceled trade" which was closed because it was abandoned or someone changed their mind. These kinds of trades should not count as feedback.

On the other hand, a trade that has been canceled after being accepted by both parties, should count. If it's accepted, there has to be a serious reason for cancelation, and feedback is important then.

We'll think about it a little, but I would change the feedback system in this way, making the "accept" button more important.

I agree with this, however I think it's also important to allow people to alter the trade after both have accepted the trade, but only if both parties agree to the change. Like say if someone made a mistake in what they thought they had available and accepted the trade not realizing this, then needed to alter it after the fact and did so in an amicable way that both parties were satisfied with (This exact thing happened to me). Further it would be nice if there was a history of changes made, so we can see what cards people take off and put on the offer over time.

In the interim, before there is any updates to the feedback system, would it be possible to get:
http://deckbox.org/users/GreyCr0ss

... marked as untrustworthy, so others don't get suckered into trades with him?

He never sent cards in this trade:
http://deckbox.org/trades/5235?s=7927

Despite multiple times sending messages on deckbox, as well as sending him messages on reddit and through email. I don't want to cancel the trade (since I sent my cards), and I don't want to click that I received them (because that doesn't do anything unless he also does that, and, well, because I didn't receive them.)

If this was supposed to go to support@deckbox.org instead, my apologies! Feel free to delete the post, in that case.

marumari wrote:In the interim, before there is any updates to the feedback system, would it be possible to get:
http://deckbox.org/users/GreyCr0ss

... marked as untrustworthy, so others don't get suckered into trades with him?

He never sent cards in this trade:
http://deckbox.org/trades/5235?s=7927

Despite multiple times sending messages on deckbox, as well as sending him messages on reddit and through email. I don't want to cancel the trade (since I sent my cards), and I don't want to click that I received them (because that doesn't do anything unless he also does that, and, well, because I didn't receive them.)

If this was supposed to go to support@deckbox.org instead, my apologies! Feel free to delete the post, in that case.

Huh I remember seeing that trade, the name "Thrun, Remotely!" caught my eye. I can understand why you wouldn't want to cancel it but you probably should as that's the only way to mark it with negative feedback. Not everyone on this site reads the forums and might miss that on that chap otherwise. I may have to end up doing the same thing myself with one trade I had with this guy early this week, already sent the cards to him then he went silent. I'm hoping it'll work out still, but we'll see...

Probably what they should do is have three sections, completed trades, cancelled trades, and disputed trades. And have a dispute button the same way they have a cancel trade button. Then you can give your rating independent of that.

Hello. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have sent an email to him to try clarifying the situation. If there is no other way to solve this, the trade will be canceled, he gets a negative feedback and gets flagged as untrustworthy, which probably means he cannot trade on deckbox anymore until all open disputes are resolved.

In one of the next updates we will change the canceled trades system as described above. Any trade that has been accepted, and THEN canceled, will have valid feedback assigned, that counts to the user's score, and will be displayed on a user's profile (this also is coming up in the next update).

sebi wrote:Hello. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have sent an email to him to try clarifying the situation. If there is no other way to solve this, the trade will be canceled, he gets a negative feedback and gets flagged as untrustworthy, which probably means he cannot trade on deckbox anymore until all open disputes are resolved.

In one of the next updates we will change the canceled trades system as described above. Any trade that has been accepted, and THEN canceled, will have valid feedback assigned, that counts to the user's score, and will be displayed on a user's profile (this also is coming up in the next update).

Ah so we are indeed supposed to report being ripped to you guys. I thought I read that somewhere, it should be on the trading page with a "report this trade" button to notify you guys.

ZATZAi wrote: Ah so we are indeed supposed to report being ripped to you guys. I thought I read that somewhere, it should be on the trading page with a "report this trade" button to notify you guys.

That's a good idea!

I have had the same question for a little while now. From what I can tell we are supposed to e-mail support@deckbox.org.

Can I assume you've reasonable tried to solve the dispute between the two of you?

For my issue, no. I still believe we can work it out amongst ourselves so I have not yet submitted for support. My patience is wearing thin, however...

Can we have a bad trader forum? One where people having disputes can post threads and moderators can help them through it? I know mtgsalvation has one and it works quite well over there. Heck we could probably just steal their setup (with credit :D). Screw ups like this do happen every once and a while, so it'd be good to have a system for it.

flaminbagofpoop wrote:Can I assume you've reasonable tried to solve the dispute between the two of you?

it's been a month and a half since addresses were exchanged. march 1st is the last correspondence he's sent. i have sent multiple emails to him already with no reply and his deckbox profile shows he hasn't been online since the 10th of march.

If you haven't been using the trade chat box you may want to repeat the e-mails you've sent and give the user time to respond. Given that the user hasn't been online in a few weeks I can assume he/she will not respond. The reason for doing this, however, is to cover yourself. It is stated in the trading help section that the trade chat log is the first place an admin will check to ensure a reasonable attempt has been made to resolve the issue. Without it, you probably won't get very far.

i have used the chat box as well. it reflects the information of the emails sent.

I had the same problem with a guy from the Reddit trade thread. I sent a message to the mods just to make them aware, but I knew they had no real power... sucks being out 25 bucks in cards.

Zenthazar wrote:I had the same problem with a guy from the Reddit trade thread. I sent a message to the mods just to make them aware, but I knew they had no real power... sucks being out 25 bucks in cards.

You have his address, why not file mail fraud?

It seems like a bad trade thread or subforum will have to be made. I'm personally in a dead-end trade for 50 bucks where the user has been on posting on reddit recently but hasn't responded to my PMs. Will be waiting a while longer to see if he responds.

For what it's worth I am somewhat against a bad trade forum. It has little potential to help the users get their cards, a mild amount of potential to warn future traders and a large amount of potential to turn in to a witch hunt. That isn't good for anybody and, in the end, defeats the very purpose of its creation because it wouldn't be reliable.

I personally just finished a trade today that I may have blasted all over the proposed forum had one existed. As it turns out, the other trader was simply very slow and a poor communicator. Had I posted his name the damage to his reputation would have been done and yet he didn't do anything that couldn't have been resolved through the trade feedback system.

That's small comfort for those who have truly lost their cards, I am sure. But, you always have the recourse of leaving negative feedback and getting the Deckbox admins involved who may eventually suspend trading privileges for the user in question. This method does a better job of pushing for a resolution and warning other users to trade cautiously (often because they won't be able to trade with them).

I think users should only need to use the bad trader forum when all other options are exhausted. That's the way that Salvation has theirs set up.

Here are the rules for the forum there:http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=397614

It's a well written set of rules. I don't use MTG Salvation for trading but it seems to me that they have a different dilemma in that their trading is facilitated by forum posts. If that's true then I see the need for these rules. On Deckbox, we have the feedback system and the admins have the ability to turn off a users ability to trade. That seems like the equivalent of a "BTR" on MTG Salvation's MarketPlace with the added benefit that nobody has to check the aforementioned thread before they are made aware of a bad trader. What other options need be exhausted?

It's not like I am going to stand in anybody's way if they really want a bad trader forum created. I couldn't if I wanted to. I just want everyone to be sure there isn't already a mechanism in place to handle what they want; even if it isn't done the same way other sites are doing it.

Coyote1023 wrote:

Zenthazar wrote:I had the same problem with a guy from the Reddit trade thread. I sent a message to the mods just to make them aware, but I knew they had no real power... sucks being out 25 bucks in cards.

You have his address, why not file mail fraud?

Not really worth the effort. I'm more annoyed that I didn't receive my Angelic Destiny then giving away cards for free. I needed it for weeks and didn't want to pick it up (finally did) somewhere else.

Zenthazar wrote:

Coyote1023 wrote:

Zenthazar wrote:I had the same problem with a guy from the Reddit trade thread. I sent a message to the mods just to make them aware, but I knew they had no real power... sucks being out 25 bucks in cards.

You have his address, why not file mail fraud?

Not really worth the effort. I'm more annoyed that I didn't receive my Angelic Destiny then giving away cards for free. I needed it for weeks and didn't want to pick it up (finally did) somewhere else.

You could at least report him to get his/her address out there. I don't want to trade with this person, and due to your crypticness, I don't know if I have/will.

With a system we all get to see the address of the persons involved, so we can protect ourselves.

Tawnos wrote:It's a well written set of rules. I don't use MTG Salvation for trading but it seems to me that they have a different dilemma in that their trading is facilitated by forum posts. If that's true then I see the need for these rules. On Deckbox, we have the feedback system and the admins have the ability to turn off a users ability to trade. That seems like the equivalent of a "BTR" on MTG Salvation's MarketPlace with the added benefit that nobody has to check the aforementioned thread before they are made aware of a bad trader. What other options need be exhausted?

It's not like I am going to stand in anybody's way if they really want a bad trader forum created. I couldn't if I wanted to. I just want everyone to be sure there isn't already a mechanism in place to handle what they want; even if it isn't done the same way other sites are doing it.

This forum is a conglomeration of reddit trade thread posts and deckbox users. Not all trades go on around here.

Also, filing for mail fraud doesn't get you anything. If a hundred people file mail fraud for the same guy, the cops might look into it.

Tawnos wrote:For what it's worth I am somewhat against a bad trade forum. It has little potential to help the users get their cards, a mild amount of potential to warn future traders and a large amount of potential to turn in to a witch hunt. That isn't good for anybody and, in the end, defeats the very purpose of its creation because it wouldn't be reliable.

I personally just finished a trade today that I may have blasted all over the proposed forum had one existed. As it turns out, the other trader was simply very slow and a poor communicator. Had I posted his name the damage to his reputation would have been done and yet he didn't do anything that couldn't have been resolved through the trade feedback system.

That's small comfort for those who have truly lost their cards, I am sure. But, you always have the recourse of leaving negative feedback and getting the Deckbox admins involved who may eventually suspend trading privileges for the user in question. This method does a better job of pushing for a resolution and warning other users to trade cautiously (often because they won't be able to trade with them).

The problem with the feedback system is that one person always has to leave it first. So it gives you strong incentive to leave positive feedback regardless of how bad the trader is because of fear that he'll leave negative feedback in return.