marumari wrote:In the interim, before there is any updates to the feedback system, would it be possible to get:
http://deckbox.org/users/GreyCr0ss

... marked as untrustworthy, so others don't get suckered into trades with him?

He never sent cards in this trade:
http://deckbox.org/trades/5235?s=7927

Despite multiple times sending messages on deckbox, as well as sending him messages on reddit and through email. I don't want to cancel the trade (since I sent my cards), and I don't want to click that I received them (because that doesn't do anything unless he also does that, and, well, because I didn't receive them.)

If this was supposed to go to support@deckbox.org instead, my apologies! Feel free to delete the post, in that case.

He has ignored our messages as well. His account is as of now marked as an untrustworthy trader.

http://deckbox.org/users/GreyCr0ss

If you have no hopes of finishing the trades you have with him, cancel them and leave a negative feedback. This feedback will (after our next update) count towards his general score.

What about if the feedback system was changed. So no party gets to see the other's results until both party's feedback has been submitted.

anubomb wrote:The problem with the feedback system is that one person always has to leave it first. So it gives you strong incentive to leave positive feedback regardless of how bad the trader is because of fear that he'll leave negative feedback in return.

That's a very valid point and I agree with Bertongod that a change to the feedback system wherein neither party may see the feedback score until both have been entered seems like a reasonable solution.

Keep throwing ideas out there. The deckbox.org admins are extremely attentive :)

Perhaps a system where negative feedback needs to be approved by mods. This way we can use neutral for unhappy experiences and leave negative for the real cases of fraud, bad communication, and neglect. Thoughts?

I think that's a good idea but I also know that this site was built and is maintained by two very awesome people who have day jobs. If they spend their time moderating feedback they will have less time to make improvements to the site which is what they really want to be doing (and it's what we want too :)). It would be awesome if some people could serve as arbiters in trades gone bad but I wouldn't want to take the site administrators away from making Deckbox better.

Does anyone know if Sebi and/or Laura read this board? This thread is forking in to two concerns, one about a way to deal with bad traders (the original intent) and another about how feedback is left. I might split it and move them both to the feedback forums if that's OK with the moderators here. (I don't just want to jack your thread and move it around on you :P)

Tawnos wrote:I think that's a good idea but I also know that this site was built and is maintained by two very awesome people who have day jobs. If they spend their time moderating feedback they will have less time to make improvements to the site which is what they really want to be doing (and it's what we want too :)). It would be awesome if some people could serve as arbiters in trades gone bad but I wouldn't want to take the site administrators away from making Deckbox better.

Does anyone know if Sebi and/or Laura read this board? This thread is forking in to two concerns, one about a way to deal with bad traders (the original intent) and another about how feedback is left. I might split it and move them both to the feedback forums if that's OK with the moderators here. (I don't just want to jack your thread and move it around on you :P)

Email, and forward this thread with a few detailed suggestions to Sebi.
that's my best advice.

Yeah, right now the feedback system right now doesn't really do anything other than completely shut down someone who gets a negative (or even a neutral).

Ideally I'd like to see neutral be used for the majority of trades, +1 if the trader is really friendly, generous, etc., and -1 for bad trades. Then have an easier way to see their detailed feedback. This would only work if feedback was hidden until given by both parties, as then you'd have no personal incentive to give someone a +1. It would act like a compliment/reward for exceptional trades.

I believe a system like this would encourage people to be friendly and yield better trades, and it would allow people see how good of a trader someone is (instead of just how many trades they've made). Lets say someone has made 20 trades and they have a feedback score of:

• 0 (all neutral): I'd have no qualms about trading with them. They may not be very personable or whatever, but they haven't made any bad trades so why not trade with them?
• +9 (10 positive, 1 negative): I'd still trade with them despite their -1. It wouldn't shut them down from trading because it could have been a fluke or something, considering they've had 10 good trades. At a glance they'd look like better traders than the first guy, too, since they have net positive feedback.
• +15 (all positive): I'd jump through hoops to trade with them. It's obvious that other people really enjoyed trading with them and complimented them with the +1s for it (and they'll get rewarded with trade requests from more people because of this).

/$.02

Edit: This would also make the feedback system a lot clearer, especially for new people. I've had a few trades where hardly any words were exchanged between us. Not to say that there's anything wrong with this - the cards were sent in a timely fashion and arrived in good condition, but I'm sure we both walked away feeling neutral about it. Yet the feedback system pretty much requires a positive feedback, which has made it essentially a "not awful" feedback and not a commendation for a really good trade like I believe it should be.

Monolith wrote:Email, and forward this thread with a few detailed suggestions to Sebi.
that's my best advice.

That's a good point. We don't need to spark further debate and my intention is to give it visibility. I will take your advice, thanks!

Tawnos wrote:

Monolith wrote:Email, and forward this thread with a few detailed suggestions to Sebi.
that's my best advice.

That's a good point. We don't need to spark further debate and my intention is to give it visibility. I will take your advice, thanks!

I've emailed sebi about this issue, and while we cannot set up a bad trader subforum the way that magictraders has (with full name and address plastered on the threads), the deckbox.org admins are working on a better, clearer feedback system. We've also talked about having admins deal with bad trader reports and permanently banning (no new accounts) previously-reported addresses.

Currently, the admins are utilizing a flagging system for accounts that do not respond to investigative questions.

Please add to the discussion in this thread: http://deckbox.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1574
This is an issue that affects all of the deckbox community.

Thank you Thrun! You beat me to it so I will leave this in your hands.

Been looking at this thread and while i am sorry you have to deal with this it brings up a few points I am dealing with.

What exactly deserves a Negative feedback rating? Now obviously someone who takes cards and never mails yours is a bad trader, but is that the only thing that requires a negative score? If someone proposes a trade, you both agree and then five days later you dont hear anything and they cancel the trade without any notice saying they are no longer interested. While no cards were exchanged or lost would you also consider this a bad trade as they have held up your cards that could have been traded to others? Especially if they are the one that proposed the trade. Currently facing this myself as someone I have never traded before made a deal offer and while it seemed a bit too good for me, they made the offer and so I agreed. Now almost a week later and they have not mailed the card or really responded. Sent an email so still waiting for a response but if it fails I feel i should be able to leave a negative score without getting one in kind. I was suspicious of the trader (only +1 and that was a while ago) so them sending first is part of the agreement. This may seem petty but i decided to pass on offers due to this agreement being finalized and its irritating that he screwed me on those offers.

I want to add I have had a great experience on here so far and lots of wonderful honest people so want to keep it honest and safe for all of us as long as possible.

mbknight wrote:Been looking at this thread and while i am sorry you have to deal with this it brings up a few points I am dealing with.

What exactly deserves a Negative feedback rating? Now obviously someone who takes cards and never mails yours is a bad trader, but is that the only thing that requires a negative score? If someone proposes a trade, you both agree and then five days later you dont hear anything and they cancel the trade without any notice saying they are no longer interested. While no cards were exchanged or lost would you also consider this a bad trade as they have held up your cards that could have been traded to others? Especially if they are the one that proposed the trade. Currently facing this myself as someone I have never traded before made a deal offer and while it seemed a bit too good for me, they made the offer and so I agreed. Now almost a week later and they have not mailed the card or really responded. Sent an email so still waiting for a response but if it fails I feel i should be able to leave a negative score without getting one in kind. I was suspicious of the trader (only +1 and that was a while ago) so them sending first is part of the agreement. This may seem petty but i decided to pass on offers due to this agreement being finalized and its irritating that he screwed me on those offers.

I want to add I have had a great experience on here so far and lots of wonderful honest people so want to keep it honest and safe for all of us as long as possible.

Just posted a very basic guideline to giving feedback in the sticky post. Please let me know if you see any glaring errors or loopholes. Negative feedback should be treated very seriously. Neutral feedback already makes your account look suspicious because it will say "13 out of 15," and other people will want to know where the missing numbers went.

Also what do you do if a trader offers you cake in a trade but doesn't send the cake, but you receive the cards.

Seems like a neutral rating but i am very angry about not having cake to eat so i am thinking negative. :cool:

No cake?! Time to form an angry mob. Lets run this cake liar out of town! Admins have a perma-ban hammer for just these cases.

actually I'm kinda annoyed you can't fix feedback- one of my trades from awhile ago was marked as neutral by the guy and he can't fix it :/

Are you sure there was no cake? I dont think you can confirm that until you receive the package. Just oblivion ring the angry mob.

I got the first one. No cake. I'm hopeful for the next.

mbknight wrote:Been looking at this thread and while i am sorry you have to deal with this it brings up a few points I am dealing with.

What exactly deserves a Negative feedback rating? Now obviously someone who takes cards and never mails yours is a bad trader, but is that the only thing that requires a negative score? If someone proposes a trade, you both agree and then five days later you dont hear anything and they cancel the trade without any notice saying they are no longer interested. While no cards were exchanged or lost would you also consider this a bad trade as they have held up your cards that could have been traded to others? Especially if they are the one that proposed the trade. Currently facing this myself as someone I have never traded before made a deal offer and while it seemed a bit too good for me, they made the offer and so I agreed. Now almost a week later and they have not mailed the card or really responded. Sent an email so still waiting for a response but if it fails I feel i should be able to leave a negative score without getting one in kind. I was suspicious of the trader (only +1 and that was a while ago) so them sending first is part of the agreement. This may seem petty but i decided to pass on offers due to this agreement being finalized and its irritating that he screwed me on those offers.

I want to add I have had a great experience on here so far and lots of wonderful honest people so want to keep it honest and safe for all of us as long as possible.

You know, I have similar questions. Mbknight and I had traded and I was for certain he was going to give me a negative feedback on a misunderstanding, but I wanted to make it right. I'm glad I could give him what he wanted even though it originally didn't go that way and I could make it up the only way I knew how... traded more value.

My opinion, there shouldn't even be a neutral feedback. It was either good or bad. If it starts to go bad, you make a second or third trade to make it good. When they are bad, there's no do overs. They are so gone that mending the issue is impossible.

Even reading this, I'm a little worried because one of my current trades is with a +1 person... Everyone I dealt with, besides my very first trade, has never enforced the "lower feedback sends first" rule. Not sure when that rule can slide into the "exception" category, but I fear I should have waited for them to send first.

And another thought, and maybe because I'm a family man with a son and experiencing my own mortality...

Who knows, maybe the dude died. And now you just gave him a negative feedback as their going away present.

I know, it's a little funny to think about but a little sad too. I hate being old. :(

Hellnikko wrote:And another thought, and maybe because I'm a family man with a son and experiencing my own mortality...
Who knows, maybe the dude died. And now you just gave him a negative feedback as their going away present.
I know, it's a little funny to think about but a little sad too. I hate being old. :(

the unlikely event of that even happening, I strongly believe negative feedback over a botched card trade is the least of his worries .. being dead an all..

Monolith wrote:

Hellnikko wrote:And another thought, and maybe because I'm a family man with a son and experiencing my own mortality...
Who knows, maybe the dude died. And now you just gave him a negative feedback as their going away present.
I know, it's a little funny to think about but a little sad too. I hate being old. :(

the unlikely event of that even happening, I strongly believe negative feedback over a botched card trade is the least of his worries .. being dead an all..

You have to understand that some people who enjoy MTG actually are very busy people. We're college kids who have homework every night. We're business men with families and children. I've had a few trades of my own get delayed because yes, it turned out that I didn't have time to head to the post office for a week. All you need to do is communicate with your trade partner and work things out. If they don't respond at first, but eventually explain themselves, there's no need to give negative feedback.

Another trade partner of mine didn't respond for a week and a half after I sent my cards. It turned out that he had all of his cards stolen. Dealing with property loss isn't a 1 hour thing. We talked it out on the trade page and came to an agreement. While I was a bit annoyed when there was silence on the other end, it was still worth waiting out, because you never know.

Remember that negative feedback has a HUGE effect on people. It's demoralizing and outright rude when the sender delivered the items that they promised. You don't know what's going on in other people's lives, so don't make snap judgments.

For the record, my reply to mbknight in no way represents that I harbor bad feelings for him. He was hella nice to make a second (er, third) trade with me to make it better.

Like I said, we worked it out, but I wanted to state that I made a mistake that I was afraid may warrant a negative feedback from him. So I know we want to weed out the bad traders, but still think of the innocent mistakes and not to be quick on pulling the trigger.

And yes, my schedule overlaps the PO hours like an eclipse. It sucks when I make deals on Monday and have to make the other person wait until Friday to ship. I feel bad and hope the other person understands.

Thrun wrote:... If they don't respond at first, but eventually explain themselves, there's no need to give negative feedback. ...

If, however, the other party is unresponsive multiple times and/or their responses are defiant instead of helpful I think there is room for [u]neutral[/u] feedback.

EDIT: If you happen to catch the original version of this reply it was wordy and unnecessary so I chopped it down. I'm tired :(

hahaha my response to Hellnikko was more of a joke.

the whole ordeal of bad/good/trustworthy trading is what set's my paranoia, and why I only dabble in local trades. eventually I may come out of my shell and partake in a long distance trade. I'm slowly working my way to that point.

Monolith wrote:hahaha my response to Hellnikko was more of a joke.

the whole ordeal of bad/good/trustworthy trading is what set's my paranoia, and why I only dabble in local trades. eventually I may come out of my shell and partake in a long distance trade. I'm slowly working my way to that point.

I was going to reply too. I took it as joking! I'm not necessarily worried that the dead guy is worried about the botched deal, it's that the person who gave him feedback would now post his name in the bad trader forum and condemn him while his family and friends are mourning him. For me, I'd be worried about the person being okay before I thought they were a crook. Probably too trusting that way, but if I do find out they jipped me intentionally, I can be a vindictive sonofa.

And you know, I was scared when I did my first long distance trade here. I gave double the value to the guy because I was the FNG at the time. Now that it's done, I don't think I can stop. I'm just late to the party and don't have enough to give unless I get lucky. lol

There will be no personal information posting here. If something comes up and you get banned, there's always room to explain yourself and provide proof if you want to join again. The community isn't quite as big yet :)

Hello everybody.

The last 2 pages in this thread have been a discussion amongst the guys on the reddit mtg trades community. Since it contains many nice ideas, I have moved it here for more visibility.

Our feeling on the matter is that indeed we need more features to enhance the feedback system. The ones that we DEFINITELY want to implement, and you can expect at some point during the month of april are:

• We want user feedback to really matter. Feedback score will be more prominently displayed everywhere a username is displayed (like the score of an ebay user). Detailed feedback listing will be present on users profiles.
• A report button will be provided, so people can report untrustworthy users to our support address. We will look into the reports, and will flag users that ignore our requests for comment. (like: http://deckbox.org/users/GreyCr0ss as discussed here earlier in this thread)
• Canceling a trade after it has been accepted by both parties will have a feedback score that matters to your total score.
• People's addresses and personal information will NOT be published anywhere, as it would be a breach of privacy. BUT we will implement a system where we are notified when a user sets a suspicious address. (A suspicious address would be one already used by a banned account, or very similar).
• The current trade help page http://deckbox.org/help/trade will be clearer and more detailed, to have more info on all these issues

As a final note, we will handle serious feedback support requests for cases of fraud, where people ignore other user's emails and so on. These are cases that result in a ban or an untrustworthy flag. We will NOT moderate incorrect feedback support requests. If a trade goes through, and both people receive cards but one user gets a -1 when he was supposed to get +1, that's not a serious problem. The feedback system should be self regulating in these cases. This works for eBay and many other feedback powered systems, so it should work for us too :)

We're looking forward hear your feedback on these issues.

I'm resurrecting this old thread because we're currently finishing up some of the features we've promised here, and also because of email discussions with users on trade score related topics.

Neutral Feedback

There is an interesting idea proposed by someone higher in this thread that I think merits further discussion or consideration: should there be an option for neutral feedback? In principle it makes sense to have it, but looking back it seems many people feel bad for negative feedback, as they would for negative. So maybe a system with just +1 and -1 would be simpler and clearer?

Expired / old trades

Second issue that is currently a problem are "timed out" trades - the ones that have been accepted but then become stuck - either a user does not send cards, or does not mark them as received, or does not leave any feedback. These trades are currently just showing in the pending section for ever - obviously a bad solution :).

Possible changes

My thoughts on how to better deal with cancelation and trade score:

• User score will be shown in a clearer fashion: sebi +10, -1 - meaning I have 10 positive feedbacks and 1 negative.
• We will allow modification of trade feedback for a limited period of time after a trade is finished (probably 2 weeks).
• Finished trades - cards sent and received, feedback left by both users. For these we can make feedback only use +1 or -1. Feedback text will be shown directly on a users' trade page so that it's easier to see (now you'd need to click on all trades).
• Finished trades with no feedback - currently shown as Pending. We could treat these as what neutral stands for right now. If someone does not wish to leave a +1 or -1, hence is indifferent, he can just do that. The user's rating will not change in any way. For the above example, I would still have +10, -1, even if I finished another trade for which I did not receive feedback.
• Unfinished trades for which someone HAS SENT cards - these basically mean someone has messed up: either the sender is lying, the receiver is lying, the post lost the cards and there is no confirmation, one user just does not use deckbox anymore and does not care, etc. After a set period of time passes and a trade is in the same state (1 month?) it will be shown with a warning sign in the trade listing, highlighted as a "problem" trade. One of the participants will have to then terminate it, and feedback can be left. In case it is a provable scam, he can use the report button and we will enforce negative feedback and/or a ban for the offending party. In case it is not provable, both parties just leave feedback explaining what happened
• Unfinished trades canceled BEFORE anyone sent cards - these happen for many reasons and generally are "no harm done" type of deals. For these we will implement a Reason for cancelation field, as described by HikingStick at the bottom of this post. They will also take NO feedback score.

How does this sound? We're open to suggestions, now's the best time to discuss this, as we're implementing these things currently :)

Neutral Feedback

I personally like having the ability to leave Neutral Feedback. There are times where the other person screws up pretty badly (like not shipping for a month), but then ends up coming through and everything is fine. I really don't want to give them positive feedback, for obvious reasons, but if everything worked out just fine in the end, then I really don't want to give them negative feedback either.

Expired / old trades

I think your ideas generally sound pretty good. I feel like it is missing something, but I can't come up with anything at the moment so, right now, it is perfect! ;)