@Sebi

I'm here for the long haul. Users can still work trades, I understand trading low value cards may suck and take some work on trades, but I feel it has always been the users final responsibility to check values if they think something is off. Anyone who want's to trade with me let me know if you want I will do the math on both sides because fair is fair.

Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help you out.

Well, this is too bad. Guess it was obvious that this was coming once the marketplace was announced - time to set to vacation mode until further notice.

I also support the MTGPrice API solution.

bighappyblocker wrote:@Sebi

I'm here for the long haul. Users can still work trades, I understand trading low value cards may suck and take some work on trades, but I feel it has always been the users final responsibility to check values if they think something is off. Anyone who want's to trade with me let me know if you want I will do the math on both sides because fair is fair.

Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help you out.

I don't disagree that it is each persons responsibility to know the prices, but having a platform that made trade valuations simple was a HUGE part of the advantage deckbox brought to the table. I'm not abandoning the site for all time, but until I wrap my head around whats going on and figure out how I'm going to approach trades through the site, and/or see what changes next with pricing since Sebi said this amazon thing is only temporary.

Lets be honest, while you may double check you know the prices of your promo's, what cards might have spiked, lets say your trading for or trading a m12 birds of paradise. this is such a know value I'm sure you haven't second guessed DB's price. You go yeah 2-3ish its somewhere in there. Now? Apparently its $4, $6 in foil. That price is 25% to high. Before I could genrally trust DB pricing to be accurate, now I'm going to have to research every trade. I put my account on vacation, but even if/when I resume trading until we have a trustworthy pricing database, the time to check each trade is just going to add time to every trade I do, make me less likely to do larger (volume not price) trades and so forth.

Reputation of the price data means everything. Nobody trusts Amazon for pricing. People in general trusted TCGP because it is an aggregate of many stores prices so the TCGmid is a good average value for a card. MTG Price would provide a similar thing, but deckbox prices or amazon prices are just based on whatever. Here is what is going to happen. People who are willing to sell on deckbox will most likely reference prices on TCGP. The issue is people will be less likely to sell due to the amount of work to price cards. I might list a card or a couple of cards but pricing out 100 or more cards when I have to price each individually is going to be a real issue.

We will be discussing a possible integration with MtgPrice.

@marumari - donations would not work. We need resources to pay full time developers and support. That is not feasible with donations. We want to be a solid long term business that provides a rock solid product to the users. If we want to be here another 6 years from now, it is the only way to go.

This is a big mistake. Find some other way to monetize the site. You get enough traffic to earn money via google ads, and you could start accepting donations. You could even give perks to donating members (similar to the system on Untap.in) to incentivize donations. I don't think the marketplace will ever be your bread and butter, so there is no sense in putting the site in serious jeopardy for it. Either that or find a new source of data. Amazon is a terrible choice. I have found this site to be incredibly useful but these developments have me very disappointed.

keitht253 wrote:This is a big mistake. Find some other way to monetize the site. You get enough traffic to earn money via google ads, and you could start accepting donations.

This has been calculated and tried. It does not work.

As I said, have some faith in us, we will have proper price data soon, we do not need or want to depend on the whims of Tcgplayer.

They bullied us now, they could have bullied us at any point in this website's future. We cannot rely on them.

Website is nearly unusable as is... I realize the website is provided as a "free" service, but ads to provide a form of revenue and i think that will drop sharply after this.

From a business prospective this isn't a shocker, starcity and others have already handed out CNDs to others. Seems like all of this was poorly executed. This is surely a result of the market place announcement and that should have been withheld until a suitable replacement was in effect. It puts you in direct competition with TCG player how could you think it wouldn't be an issue?

I'm not going to stop using deck box and I may even take part int he market place once everything is finalized, but I can't justify using the site in it's current state.

GLHF until then.

elpablo wrote:Website is nearly unusable as is... I realize the website is provided as a "free" service, but ads to provide a form of revenue and i think that will drop sharply after this.

There are no ads anymore, for a week now.

sebi wrote:Again, we are really sorry for this situation, and if it had been avoidable, we would have avoided it, but sadly we cannot.

It was completely avoidable...just dont do the market. They performed the same business practice you the same as you would bully them if they stood up a direct competitor to you while using all of your data to make your site remotely functional.

rixan wrote: It was completely avoidable...just dont do the market. They performed the same business practice you the same as you would bully them if they stood up a direct competitor to you while using all of your data to make your site remotely functional.

I have answered this above. We cannot remain in our current form.

There is a lot of negativity here, I just wanted to say I have faith that this site will return to full awesomeness, hopefully sooner rather than later. Thanks Sebi for all of your hard work.

I've seen other sites have similar problems. PucaTrade for example ended up writing their own pricing code.

I'm hoping that this change actually allows Deckbox to move away from the restrictions of TCG player and accommodate more of the promos & cards that were not previously listed.

gumgodMTG wrote:I'm hoping that this change actually allows Deckbox to move away from the restrictions of TCG player and accommodate more of the promos & cards that were not previously listed.

They are coming next week! :)

buughost wrote:

sebi wrote:

buughost wrote: You were doing one thing really well. Why compromise that in order to add half-baked functionality as well as diminish your ability to fulfill your original goal. I would strongly suggest polling your audience before making such huge decisions on their behalf. I understand you're the product owner, but you also don't want to leave your user-base feeling abandoned. I'm speaking not only as a user of the system, but as a UX/Usability professional.

Because we would have had to completely shut the website down in absence of a monetization strategy.

And certainly there are other options to explore than this.

Why not take out your frustration on TCG's legal department instead of the guy who spends many hours of his free time creating a free website for your enjoyment and benefit? We didn't get here because the deckbox team wants to use Amazon prices. We are here because they can't use TCGplayer anymore under legal threat. You should be able to appreciate the difference as a professional. It isn't their intention to offer a deliberately worse product.

Sorry this happened sebi. I'm sure you are working on the best solution, and this was the one that you could implement quickly while figuring out the best options for the site and long term growth.

gumgodMTG wrote:There is a lot of negativity here, I just wanted to say I have faith that this site will return to full awesomeness, hopefully sooner rather than later. Thanks Sebi for all of your hard work.

I've seen other sites have similar problems. PucaTrade for example ended up writing their own pricing code.

I'm hoping that this change actually allows Deckbox to move away from the restrictions of TCG player and accommodate more of the promos & cards that were not previously listed.

I am not negative, I think there are ways to work out of this, but for right now until things get sorted out, I am going to hang back a bit. I think amazon pricing was a desperation move of being caught between loosing tcgp and not having their own setup ready to go, and I get that, but it still isn't usable data really so I'm not going to use it.

sebi wrote:

elpablo wrote:Website is nearly unusable as is... I realize the website is provided as a "free" service, but ads to provide a form of revenue and i think that will drop sharply after this.

There are no ads anymore, for a week now.

Fair enough... seems you guys have a bit of a mess to work on though. I appreciate the response. Sorry this happened to you guys and I hope you can recover.

I'm not usually an optimist but I'm rooting for you.

gumgodMTG wrote:There is a lot of negativity here, I just wanted to say I have faith that this site will return to full awesomeness, hopefully sooner rather than later. Thanks Sebi for all of your hard work.

I've seen other sites have similar problems. PucaTrade for example ended up writing their own pricing code.

I'm hoping that this change actually allows Deckbox to move away from the restrictions of TCG player and accommodate more of the promos & cards that were not previously listed.

I agree with this sentiment. Let's all please let Sebi and his colleagues do what they need over the next few weeks. We've all stuck it out this long (two years for me this June); have some patience and let's see how this pans out. We've all been very vocal here in the forums, which is a good thing. It's better that we're hearing straight from the site owners themselves about these changes and how they plan to alleviate them vs. the Silicon Valley model where giants like Facebook just change what they like willy-nilly.

sebi wrote:

gumgodMTG wrote:I'm hoping that this change actually allows Deckbox to move away from the restrictions of TCG player and accommodate more of the promos & cards that were not previously listed.

There are coming next week! :)

That's great to hear. But, really? Getting promos listed is high on the priority list right now?

sebi wrote:

rixan wrote: It was completely avoidable...just dont do the market. They performed the same business practice you the same as you would bully them if they stood up a direct competitor to you while using all of your data to make your site remotely functional.

I have answered this above. We cannot remain in our current form.

What research or user surveying was done before deciding on the market? I've looked back through announcements and forums, and I see nothing about it before it was announced.

I have full confidence in Sebi to figure out a solution that works for the users while providing a financially stable business model for the continued running of this site. I also expect this to take bit of time, current pricing methods are just a temporary measure to preserve the functionality of the site. Let us know what we can do to help =)

If everybody stopped complaining and left sebi and the rest of the DB team alone they would have more time to fix the issues. They know what they need to do. Let them do it. In the meantime, go outside or something. Or go back to work...like me ;)

Kammikaze wrote:If everybody stopped complaining and left sebi and the rest of the DB team alone they would have more time to fix the issues. They know what they need to do. Let them do it. In the meantime, go outside or something. Or go back to work...like me ;)

By all means, people! Do not voice your opinions!

dorvaan wrote:

sebi wrote:

rixan wrote: It was completely avoidable...just dont do the market. They performed the same business practice you the same as you would bully them if they stood up a direct competitor to you while using all of your data to make your site remotely functional.

I have answered this above. We cannot remain in our current form.

What research or user surveying was done before deciding on the market? I've looked back through announcements and forums, and I see nothing about it before it was announced.

I don't think anyone said they ever did surveys or research? I think the point she's making is they were going to monetize the site or shut it down because it was to much work to do for free anymore, and hooking up people that have cards and people looking for cards to buy/sell as an alternative to trade seems more natural than just charging for a membership or something.

sebi wrote:

keitht253 wrote:This is a big mistake. Find some other way to monetize the site. You get enough traffic to earn money via google ads, and you could start accepting donations.

This has been calculated and tried. It does not work.

As I said, have some faith in us, we will have proper price data soon, we do not need or want to depend on the whims of Tcgplayer.

They bullied us now, they could have bullied us at any point in this website's future. We cannot rely on them.

It seems like you were the ones trying to take them on first, and they responded how any *direct* competitor would. You two coexisted peacefully before the marketplace. There's no reason to expect that they would've acted in such a way without provocation.

That said, I sincerely hope you guys come out of this stronger, since you have many users who have also invested a lot of time into the site (maintaining inventories, etc). I still don't (and never really did) think highly of the marketplace idea, independent of its effect on your relationship with TCGplayer, but I can see it being a useful perk for some users of the site.

jassi007 wrote:

dorvaan wrote:

sebi wrote:
I have answered this above. We cannot remain in our current form.

What research or user surveying was done before deciding on the market? I've looked back through announcements and forums, and I see nothing about it before it was announced.

I don't think anyone said they ever did surveys or research? I think the point she's making is they were going to monetize the site or shut it down because it was to much work to do for free anymore, and hooking up people that have cards and people looking for cards to buy/sell as an alternative to trade seems more natural than just charging for a membership or something.

This is my point. Typically, if you're going to start a business model, you do some research beforehand. I'm just curious to learn the thought process. Because it seems that it was done without research or surveying, and now has the very real potential to bite them. I hope that it ultimately doesn't, but it's undeniable that the potential is there.

I am sorry to hear that TCGPlayer is being a hard-on about this. I would understand where they are coming from if customers could actually buy cards through deckbox.org. The fact that you guys linked to them and openly confirmed that you use their pricing should clue them in to the fact that for this reason, this site increases their traffic and sales.

I think it's totally understandable that you wish to avoid legal trouble with them, and am grateful that you are seeking alternative methods to bridge the gap, rather than just abandoning the feature altogether. Best of luck, deckbox team.

-three_toe

Website is nearly unusable as is...

This is the most overreactive statement Ive seen. The fact that all your cards and decks are still listed and stored in once place means nothing? Trading didnt stop. Is it really that much extra work to have an extra browser window open next to deckbox to TCG or SCG or ebay or mtgprice or wherever to do a quick search of the current price of a card? Sure this is an extra step in the process but honestly, if you are that concerned about having the most current price of a card when completing a trade/sale, this should be something done regardless if a price generated automatically or an idea in your head on how much its worth.

Im honestly shocked by the amount of negativity and the lack of patience some people have.

What resources would be required to write your own code? If you can rally your loyal DeckBox followers, perhaps a crowd-funding campaign is in order? An influx of startup cash to solve these issues and launch Deckbox into a self-sustaining future. Do it now, while the coal is hot, turn our attention to a new goal.

You have a business model your confident will work, We are your #1 resource, harness the awesome power!

Go The Distance! If you Build it, they will come...

While I haven't done any development on Deckbox in the past year, I have followed closely its evolution as I have to stand Sebi's moods each day as he curses at the code :) and I have advised him during the development.

Reading everything posted here just reminds me of the Diablo 3 forum posts back when they launched (eg. "They broke Diablo", "this sucks", etc.) but I can't say I'm very surprised. As a former MtG player myself, I admit the amazon prices are not close to an ideal solution.

To address some of the questions raised here, as it seems that some of you don't see the big picture.

- Deckbox is not a big company (3 people)
- the ads we had didn't support the tiny company
- donations wouldn't have been enough to support it either
- we have taken into consideration adding premium-like features, but that would have been conflicting with Wizards of the Coast and that's not a company we want to be arguing with
- we have considered many other monetisation possibilities
- the marketplace was chosen as a solution for monetisation because it makes sense and fits in the whole logic of Deckbox
- yes, we expected TcgPlayer to not be happy, but we didn't expected them to be unhappy so soon :-)

I am not trying to get your sympathy or pity, I am simply explaining why proper market research wasn't done, why we chose to add the martketplace and why we added the Amazon prices. I understand this ruins some people's trades at the moment and we are in a less than comfortable place right now, but as mentioned before, it is not a permanent solution.

So please, bear with us, we understand and we are working on it :)

Helios52 wrote:

Website is nearly unusable as is...

This is the most overreactive statement Ive seen. The fact that all your cards and decks are still listed and stored in once place means nothing? Trading didnt stop. Is it really that much extra work to have an extra browser window open next to deckbox to TCG or SCG or ebay or mtgprice or wherever to do a quick search of the current price of a card? Sure this is an extra step in the process but honestly, if you are that concerned about having the most current price of a card when completing a trade/sale, this should be something done regardless if a price generated automatically or an idea in your head on how much its worth.

Im honestly shocked by the amount of negativity and the lack of patience some people have.

Actually, that seems like a pretty valid reaction. If we're just going to use other browser windows to check pricing anyway, why use Deckbox at all? Why not use one of the MANY other forums that exist. One of the features that drew people to trading here was the instantly accessible pricing information for both sides of the trade. That feature is currently not gone. This makes the website amazingly less useful than it was just 24 hours ago.