I have to say that I am sad to see this turn of events. There is no way this sort of site could support three people as it was, and I doubt it will now have the traffic to support three people as it is. This site should have been looked at like a second job or a hobby out of love. This site was great while it lasted. Managing the prices is a pain in the arse, and this site's main draw WAS the main reason to use it. I am not sure if I will be cancelling all my trades or not, I will have to see what the values look like....

shealy06 wrote:To start, I want to thank the Deckbox team for their development efforts. I work for a large software company out of the US, and understand and can relate to the immediate overreaction that most consumers have, regardless of how misguided, when hiccups occur. The key point, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is that the Deckbox team is providing us a free service, with an excellent ability to catalog, create, and peruse random deck ideas we create in our heads easily. More so, they have not abandoned the site. Most people/small person teams would give up after being legally "hammered" by a company like TCG, but they didn't. They are continuing to work, and we, as their end users, should have a little faith in them.

We all at some point need to realize that a team of 3 members are going to have other responsibilities outside of developing a FREE site for all of the users to enjoy. They do have bills, personal obligations, etc., that require attention, and I for one am in favor of giving them the time and breathing room to create a stable pricing solution. They are correct, the Google ads would in no way provide a suitable income that could cover and justify the endless hours it must take to manage this site. Possibly having another job, plus spending hours to manage this site and STILL manage to live an enjoyable lifestyle? People are blind if they think that's possible for free. If we take a look at whats been developed so far, and the ease of use, i think we should all look forward to the next iteration the team will provide! Perhaps they will bring an App developer online to provide us with a mobile based solution!

Congrats to the Deckbox team for what you have developed so far, and I for one, look forward to the changes and evolution to come!

I second this comment. I am anxiously awaiting the properly-functioning site.

Although, this is the internet and I am an engineer, so I feel obligated to overreact, after-the-fact criticize the decisions of the deckbox team, and call them a bunch of foul words because they didn't do everything exactly the way that I would have.

This may be too late, but could a way to monetize the site be to involve a subscription fee to be on here? It could be something monthly or yearly, but I know I certainly wouldn't mind paying some small fee to enjoy the use of the site. I think that as a trading platform and inventory management tool, the site has a lot to offer. These features would surely only improve, should the team be afforded the ability to work on it full time.

I certainly understand the need to monetize a site like this, but it's obviously very unfortunate that these consequences have resulted from adding the marketplace, as it does significantly limit the functionality of deckbox as a trading platform. My worry about this, though, is that you risk losing lots of potential marketplace customers by decreasing the functionality of the trade platform. It would seem like there are a lot people who would primarily use the site for trading, but occasionally would buy cards here if they're having trouble acquiring them in a trade.

I hope the deckbox team is reaching out to Crystal Commerce, the majority of moderate-sized sellers on tcgplayer have it as their backend. If deckbox marketplace can integrate seamlessly with Crystal Commerce, you will immediately have a large %-age of the volume for sale on tcgplayer. CC lets the sellers manage their inventory simultaneously through their own sites, ebay, amazon, and hopefully soon deckbox.

I had to share this it made me laugh.

Now is the time to buy modern staples, Affinity is down to $13!

As for the new issues, I fully stand by Sebi, Laura, and the third member of the Deckbox team. I will continue to use the website and will continue uploading cards to expand my tradelist. Deckbox has grown and its users have demanded more. The Deckbox team ('team') as a result has had to increase their time spent on the website. As things have progressed the 'breaking point' between work and deckbox collided. The 'team' believes that Deckbox is their passion. They are willing to gamble on Deckbox rather than what their previous lives where. Deckbox needs to become sustainable, most likely at a reduced income from their current employment (hence a gamble). I fully agree that ads are unsustainable as are donations. Ads cause more harm in the long run. Donations are pleasant but unreliable. The 'team' seeks reliability.

I believe that the 'team' could get enough data collected for its marketplace to create a smooth transition from TCG to its own data. I have no doubts that they tried to delay and hold off TCG for as long as they could. Their marketplace data is about a month away.

As for the viability and necessity of the marketplace - it is essential for the future of deckbox. No other source would provide the 'team' with the timemoney to continue to meet the demand from its users and WoTCs' new products. I believe that the switch to Amazon pricing was a result of a quick (i.e. immediate) patch while they pursue other means of getting an acceptable or best answer API key from another location. I believe they are pursuing another API key to replace TCG and the current Amazon. They will use the key and implement it as soon as they are able. They are also still collecting data points for the marketplace and will switch over from the API key to the marketplace in a far smoother and gradual tone.

The reactions and egress of some were and are unavoidable. Much like every sport team, there are observers, casual fans, committed fans, and fanatics. In good times everybody is a fan of the team and goes to games (creating a spike), in bad times there is a lull. While observers are appreciated and often most vocal when things go bad (in a negative way) they are always the first to leave and the last to join. They are around for the fame but once you've gone from grace, gotten old, and are sick suddenly they never answer the phone when you need help. (This is not a bad thing, it just is. Everybody has done this before and will do it again. I do not deride anybody for feeling or being this way.) Things on deckbox will not be as quick and easy as before. I, however, believe in the 'team' and am able to ride out this month long wait. I will also still conduct trading do to my belief in the 'team'.

For those thinking about going inactive while the problems are being addressed I would like to recommend using the next month as a test of your MTG card price acumen. Believe in yourself to accurately price cards. You play magic, have played magic, you have seen what people are looking for, trade for, and most importantly use in decks. Use that information to adjudicate a price with your knowledge and expertise. Pit that value on the value of other cards using your expertise. I have faith that you will come to a reasonable value eventually in your trades.

Paul_K wrote:
The reactions and egress of some were and are unavoidable. Much like every sport team, there are observers, casual fans, committed fans, and fanatics. In good times everybody is a fan of the team and goes to games (creating a spike), in bad times there is a lull. While observers are appreciated and often most vocal when things go bad (in a negative way) they are always the first to leave and the last to join. They are around for the fame but once you've gone from grace, gotten old, and are sick suddenly they never answer the phone when you need help. (This is not a bad thing, it just is. Everybody has done this before and will do it again. I do not deride anybody for feeling or being this way.) Things on deckbox will not be as quick and easy as before. I, however, believe in the 'team' and am able to ride out this month long wait. I will also still conduct trading do to my belief in the 'team'.

I cant help but feel as though your sports analogy also speaks to us true Buffalo Sabres fans as well...

sebi wrote: I have tried to discuss and reason with the president of Tcgplayer, offered my thanks for the collaboration until now, explained our position on the market and general strategy for the future in a clear way. All we received were legal threats.

This is a typical kind of response from him. I am not surprised he doesn't give a wink about other people in the community, or the community as a whole that count on these prices.

I have had dealings with him in the same way, non-communicative, non-negotiable. While this may be a business practice for them, it just makes him and the TCG site look like assholes. The way he doesn't want to include or work with anybody on anything. I have heard this from many different website owners, users, and stores.

Someone suggested using MTGstocks, well guess where those prices come from too. Also MTGprice just released a beta API but again they use some TCG but also other pries such as amazon, and larger store prices, which combined isn't always as accurate or accepted as TCG prices are. It's a start, you could talk with Alasdair over there, see if he is receptive of other ideas.

Overall, I am disgusted with this. I think it's about time users, store owners, and websites stand up to TCG against their bully tactics.

Thank you

shealy06 wrote:To start, I want to thank the Deckbox team for their development efforts. I work for a large software company out of the US, and understand and can relate to the immediate overreaction that most consumers have, regardless of how misguided, when hiccups occur. The key point, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is that the Deckbox team is providing us a free service, with an excellent ability to catalog, create, and peruse random deck ideas we create in our heads easily. More so, they have not abandoned the site. Most people/small person teams would give up after being legally "hammered" by a company like TCG, but they didn't. They are continuing to work, and we, as their end users, should have a little faith in them.

We all at some point need to realize that a team of 3 members are going to have other responsibilities outside of developing a FREE site for all of the users to enjoy. They do have bills, personal obligations, etc., that require attention, and I for one am in favor of giving them the time and breathing room to create a stable pricing solution. They are correct, the Google ads would in no way provide a suitable income that could cover and justify the endless hours it must take to manage this site. Possibly having another job, plus spending hours to manage this site and STILL manage to live an enjoyable lifestyle? People are blind if they think that's possible for free. If we take a look at whats been developed so far, and the ease of use, i think we should all look forward to the next iteration the team will provide! Perhaps they will bring an App developer online to provide us with a mobile based solution!

Congrats to the Deckbox team for what you have developed so far, and I for one, look forward to the changes and evolution to come!

Without a doubt, the best comment on this post!! It opened my eyes to the amount of work and effort put forth by our Deckbox team. Thank you shealy06 for saying this and above all, THANK YOU SEBI & CO. FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK!! I will continue to support Deckbox in whatever way they see fit to keep this site running.

Sincerely,
Lou Harland

Even if they don't get a way to price the cards how about a place where we can price out cards ourselves. Just like we can update the amount of cards we have. Most cards don't change prices that much but mainly be there just to have some value. Of course this could also be used along with a price engine to help price obscure promos and rarer cards that don't even receive enough traffic to have values.

Helios52 wrote:I cant help but feel as though your sports analogy also speaks to us true Buffalo Sabres fans as well...

Yesterday I put my name on the Blue & Gold list for 2 season tickets! Guess what type of fan I am!

For Chrome users: go get the app AutocardAnywhere. It links directly to the card page on TCG for quick price referencing.

Kammikaze wrote:For Chrome users: go get the app AutocardAnywhere. It links directly to the card page on TCG for quick price referencing.

I came here to post this. For a very long time, gmail and deckbox were the two sites where I had autocard anywhere disabled, but I've re-enabled it on deckbox.

I'd also like to add that it should theoretically be possible to have a chrome extension which automatically updates the prices of cards involved in trades. The price info requests would come from the user's computer, not Deckbox, and would likely skirt around the legal issues at hand. Writing something like that is beyond my paltry web dev skills, but I thought I'd throw the idea out there anyway.

It's going to be a messy period while trying to establish deckbox-based pricing, but there is no reason it can't happen.

To be honest, I'm surprised at the number of people who were relying directly on TCGPlayer prices blindly for their trades or sales. They provided multiple data points in the form of low, mid, and high, and there were often large discrepancies between the reliability of these prices, especially for small-value cards.

All it takes for deckbox to get its own pricing system in place is a bit of sales data. Sellers should be pricing cards at their own prices, based on what they want to receive for their card (whether they prefer to get this information based on other retail sites, tcgplayer, ebay, amazon, their LGS, etc is up to them). Over time more sellers will have more cards available, and more sales will occur. In order to provide maximum pricing data to buyers and traders, deckbox would do well to include any of the following data:

- Most recent sold price
- Average sold price (last [1/7/30] days)
- Volume sold in last [1/7/30] days
- Lowest sold price in last [] days - Highest sold price in last [] days
- Average volume available on deckbox marketplace in last [] days With even a small volume of transactions on any individual card, with enough of these types of data points, it is easy to see a ballpark for what people are willing to pay for a card, and that range will get more precise over time.[/] days - Highest sold price in last [][/1/7/30][/1/7/30]

I'm going to ask a very blunt question here. How well has the marketplace been performing? Has it been better than google adsense ad + TCGplayer API referrals for you guys? I understand it is in the infant stages. Obviously, you don't have to disclose any of this with me, I'm just curious to hear how well it is performing to make this worth it all.

Paul_K wrote:

Helios52 wrote:I cant help but feel as though your sports analogy also speaks to us true Buffalo Sabres fans as well...

Yesterday I put my name on the Blue & Gold list for 2 season tickets! Guess what type of fan I am!

The kind with money, who realizes the best time to get in for season tickets is when the team stinks...

Also, I'm sorry nobody warned you properly about Sacco's effect on an organization.



Edit: In regards to the actual thread - I can see why tcgplayer did this. I'm sure they get a lot of traffic with zero benefit from here, and now it's essentially a competing site.

Hopefully the price data here will be useful again soon. I've spent way too much time entering cards.

If you have ever traded on high end MTG stuff facebook group or MTG Salvation then this shouldn't be an issue for most users. It really only takes a minute to find prices, and it is a pain but there are large communities that still do this.

What about trying to go off of star city games web page? They would compare to TCG

AKCornwell wrote:What about trying to go off of star city games web page? They would compare to TCG

That presents the same issue as with TCG. Deckbox is/will be a direct competitor for SCG so they would deny any access to their API in the same way that TCG did.

Kammikaze wrote:

AKCornwell wrote:What about trying to go off of star city games web page? They would compare to TCG

That presents the same issue as with TCG. Deckbox is/will be a direct competitor for SCG so they would deny any access to their API in the same way that TCG did.

Indeed. Also, SCG is notorious for not sharing their pricing information.

Kammikaze wrote:

AKCornwell wrote:What about trying to go off of star city games web page? They would compare to TCG

That presents the same issue as with TCG. Deckbox is/will be a direct competitor for SCG so they would deny any access to their API in the same way that TCG did.

Very good point.. Didn't look at it like that.

buughost wrote:Is this because you guys explicitly added a market/sales functionality? If so... Get rid of it. I feel like your primary user base is traders not sellers (though I could be wrong). Maybe you should do some research or poll your active user base. I've sold stuff here occasionally, but I'd rather have TCG pricing integrated rather than a specific sales function.

This sums up what I feel pretty well. I use Deckbox for trades and TCGPlayer/LFGS for purchases. I have no interest in combining the two into one site if the end result is worse for trades because the key feature that made bulk trading and trading in general convenient on Deckbox is removed and worse for purchases because the market isn't as competitive due to the lower amount of sellers.

I can't imagine there isn't a better solution to monetizing the site than the market. I understand the need to monetize, but why would you think it would be successful if in the process you alienate a good portion of the user base you've been building for six years?

Anyway, I haven't been here long enough or done enough trades that my opinion carries much weight. I will say the reason I switched to Deckbox from other trading sites was how easy it was to balance a trade. I think with that gone and this new farce of a pricing system I'm going to put trades on hold for a bit. Hopefully you guys come to your senses and figure out a better solution.

clockworkcactus wrote:I can't imagine there isn't a better solution to monetizing the site than the market. I understand the need to monetize, but why would you think it would be successful if in the process you alienate a good portion of the user base you've been building for six years?

Hopefully you guys come to your senses and figure out a better solution.

Read the previous posts from the developers:

1. no market feature = no funds = no deckbox new updates. If you want the site to continue, you have to get through this growing pain.

2. The toothpaste is out of the tube. Even if the market feature was eliminated, TCGplayer has blocked its API for future use.

3. This API problem was inevitable.

Timber wrote:

clockworkcactus wrote:I can't imagine there isn't a better solution to monetizing the site than the market. I understand the need to monetize, but why would you think it would be successful if in the process you alienate a good portion of the user base you've been building for six years?

Hopefully you guys come to your senses and figure out a better solution.

Read the previous posts from the developers:

1. no market feature = no funds = no deckbox new updates. If you want the site to continue, you have to get through this growing pain.

2. The toothpaste is out of the tube. Even if the market feature was eliminated, TCGplayer has blocked its API for future use.

3. This API problem was inevitable.

1. You may be willing to accept that the market feature was the only way to monetize the site, but I'm willing to bet that you're in a very small minority among the users here.

2. You have absolutely zero way of knowing this. TCG Player is a large business. If you think TCG Player wouldn't again allow a site as heavily trafficked as Deckbox to resume driving business to them if Deckbox removed themselves as competition then I don't know what to tell you.

3. I'm not even sure what to make of this. It's a very blunt statement with nothing backing it up and it stands against common sense. The API problem came about because Deckbox thought, for some reason, that if they started competing against TCG Player that TCG Player would continue to allow them to use their pricing data.

Timber wrote: Read the previous posts from the developers:

1. no market feature = no funds = no deckbox new updates. If you want the site to continue, you have to get through this growing pain.

2. The toothpaste is out of the tube. Even if the market feature was eliminated, TCGplayer has blocked its API for future use.

3. This API problem was inevitable.

This is a cop-out in my opinion, there are plenty of ways to monetize, I for one would be glad to pay $10 a month for the service. I can't believe you guys didn't explore other options before announcing the market. Especially if you knew TCG would be upset and you broke some sort of non-compete. This part is your fault.

However I also disagree, clearly from my emphatic post above, about how TCG handled it. Just pulling the plug is not a good solution either. It seems to me to be deliberate ie an intentional move to hurt deckbox, instead of giving some transition time, and some leniency which would be the better solution, and have been just as easy to do.

Instead it just makes the case for me. TCG is known for 'making an example' out of people that make mistakes, and then never giving them another chance. All it does is create all of this public nonsense from non-communication, disdain for the whole service, and make users and customers unhappy; instead of having some decency to communicate and work it out privately.

It also creates a sore attitude about how the leaders of tcgplayer run their business, if they treat other people and hard working companies like this, who it seems in all attempts was trying to be thankful and appreciative, and professional. So much for customer service.

I am still a supporter of deckbox and I will continue to be. Even though I am disgusted at the whole thing.

Thank you

Timber wrote: Read the previous posts from the developers:

1. no market feature = no funds = no deckbox new updates. If you want the site to continue, you have to get through this growing pain.

Yes, that is what the developers are saying. They have stated that they looked into everything and the Marketplace was the only way to sustain the site. But it's hard to just accept that with the limited knowledge we as users have of their business. Per the Deckbox Trade Index:

"15036 users playing Magic the Gathering have logged in the last 2 months."

If Deckbox was a subscription based service and even 1/3 of those users actually paid for the service at $2 a month, that's $10k.

That looks pretty sustainable and decent for a part time business, but there are plenty of factors involved I know nothing about so my view is limited. I, by no means, fault them for wanting to make the website sustainable financially and make a profit off of their work. They definitely deserve it. Personally, I would just much rather pay a few dollars a month for the trading service than have the Marketplace.

clockworkcactus wrote: The API problem came about because Deckbox thought, for some reason, that if they started competing against TCG Player that TCG Player would continue to allow them to use their pricing data.

If my understanding is correct, the Deckbox team never expected TCG to ignore them if they started competing with them. They simply thought they'd have a little time to use the TCG API to get they're own pricing data going.

I've only recently become active on this site and it's been an awesome experience so far! The fact that this issue came up is unfortunate but I trust that you will find a solution, it might just take some time.

I personally will keep my account active and trade based on an agreed upon 3rd party site (e.g. one I buy cards from) and just look up values the way I do trades with friends and at the shop - that isn't a deal breaker for me! It means a little copy and paste and a couple more messages in trade. Though I can totally empathize with all the folks that are reactively putting their account on hiatus, I do think it's a little too soon.

I also understand the need to monetize the site. This is a fact of life for every website/program and their users once it develops. I think you actually went a very fair route by offering a new service rather than phasing out the existing trade system or forcing people to pay to trade.

I think the one suggestion I have that I think there is a reasonable consensus on is that some advance communication with the user base about the upcoming changes would have been appreciated. Sure things happen on a tight schedule, but some notice is better than none. This would also have given you an opportunity to get the buy in of your users by pitching the benefits of the change or its necessity.

~Tigerballs!

So why not just scrape the TCGPlayer prices without using their API? Then go to the EFF if the legal threats continue and try to set a precedent corroborating Padmapper vs. Ebay. Or go down fighting, at least. It's shitty that sites think they can get away with stuff like this.

Okay, I know that's not a reasonable thing to ask but the price information *needs* to be fixed soon. I'll be curious to see what's in the works.

This is incredibly disappointing. I used Deckbox daily to track actual market prices, of which TCGPlayer is the primary index. Sadly, I will no longer have a use for Deckbox. Other sites display TCG prices, so I will go there, at least until if/when they stop using TCG prices as well.

So long, Deckbox. It's been a great ride.

sebi wrote:

buughost wrote: You were doing one thing really well. Why compromise that in order to add half-baked functionality as well as diminish your ability to fulfill your original goal. I would strongly suggest polling your audience before making such huge decisions on their behalf. I understand you're the product owner, but you also don't want to leave your user-base feeling abandoned. I'm speaking not only as a user of the system, but as a UX/Usability professional.

Because we would have had to completely shut the website down in absence of a monetization strategy.

Many of us have said--many times--that we would PAY to use Deckbox--the Deckbox we've grown to love.