Hello guys,

I got a question regarding Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and Heliod, god of the sun.

Considering Heliod will not enter the battlefield as a creature if I dont have the devotion, the trigger on Trostani will not proc I would assume, but it tickles my mind because Heliod is still a creature according to the card...

So, I just want to know if the trigger on Trostani will ever proc with Heliod without the devotion.
If not, then I'll just keep crying at night.

Thank you.

A certified rules adviser can correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I believe would happen:

Helios is cast as a Legendary Enchantment Creature.
Helios isn't a creature if your devotion is less than 5.
When the permanent that is Helios enters the battlefield it checks your devotion to see if it's a Creature.
Devotion check fails, the permanent that is Helios is a Legendary Enchantment when it enters the battlefield.
No Trostani trigger.

If your devotion is less than 5, the Helios spell will have the creature type, but the permanent that enters the battlefield will not.

it doesn't actually count as a creature at all on the battlefield if devotion isn't met. so if you have a card that says exile target creature you can't use it on heliod if devotion < 5. Even though the text litterally says "creature" "god" "enchant" etc...

now... in the trostani example, if you cast heliod and with 4 devotion on the field counting the 2 devotion from trostini you still _do not_ get the etb effect from trostani... because... due to the layering rules and 614.12 below (specifically "as it would exist on the battlefield"), he doesn't become a creature until after he enters the battlefield increasing the deovtion to 5, thus trostani can't "see" him enter the battlefield as a creature. If the devotion was 5 already then trostanis' etb effect would trigger and you would gain the life.

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

elpablo wrote:now... in the trostani example, if you cast heliod and with 4 devotion on the field counting the 2 devotion from trostini you still _do not_ get the etb effect from trostani... because... due to the layering rules and 614.12 below (specifically "as it would exist on the battlefield"), he doesn't become a creature until after he enters the battlefield increasing the deovtion to 5, thus trostani can't "see" him enter the battlefield as a creature. If the devotion was 5 already then trostanis' etb effect would trigger and you would gain the life.

This is wrong. 614.12 is referring to replacement effects that modify "how" a permanent enters the battlefield such as, for example, something entering the battlefield tapped (instead of untapped), or with counters on (instead of with no counters). This doesn't apply here at all, since Heliod doesn't even have any replacement effects (let alone ones that modify how it enters the battlefield), as defined in 614.1:

614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen — they aren’t locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like “shields” around whatever they’re affecting.

614.1a Effects that use the word “instead” are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word “instead” to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

614.1b Effects that use the word “skip” are replacement effects. These replacement effects use the word “skip” to indicate what events, steps, phases, or turns will be replaced with nothing.

614.1c Effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ,” or “[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . ” are replacement effects.

614.1d Continuous effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . .” or “[Objects] enter the battlefield . . .” are replacement effects.

614.1e Effects that read “As [this permanent] is turned face up . . . ,” are replacement effects.
[/this permanent][/Objects][/This permanent][/This permanent][/this permanent][/This permanent]

Heliod's ability is simply "always on" while he's on the battlefield. So if your devotion to white is four and then you cast Heliod, then after he resolves and enters the battlefield your devotion will be five and he will be a creature. There is no point in time when Heliod is on the field already, and your devotion is still less than five, and so likewise, there is no point in time when he is on the field, and is not yet a creature. He will have entered the battlefield as a creature, and anything that triggers when a creature enters the battlefield will "see" him enter and will trigger appropriately. There's even an entry in the Theros set FAQ which covers this exact scenario (bolding mine, for emphasis):

If a God enters the battlefield, your devotion to its color (including the mana symbols in the mana cost of the God itself) will determine if a creature entered the battlefield or not, for abilities that trigger whenever a creature enters the battlefield.

In regards to the original question, though, no. If your devition to white (after Heliod resolves) is still four or less, then no creature will have entered the battlefield, and Trostani's ability will not be triggered.

if heliod is the 5th devotion he will not trigger etb abilities... there has to be 5 or more devotion on the board before trostani's effect will see him enter as a creature... i'm like 99.9% sure.

edit: foot, mouth, insert... for effects like "comes into play tapped" or other layering problems then this is true, but for a trigger like trostani's it can trigger the ability and gain the life.

elpablo wrote:if heliod is the 5th devotion he will not trigger etb abilities... there has to be 5 or more devotion on the board before trostani's effect will see him enter as a creature... i'm like 99.9% sure.

edit: foot, mouth, insert... for effects like "comes into play tapped" or other layering problems then this is true, but for a trigger like trostani's it can trigger the ability and gain the life.

I don't think so. When he enters the battlefield a devotion check is made. The devotion would include him since he is now on the battlefield.

This is the same kind of rules that make Scapeshift/Valakut work

yup right, i was wrong... went down an incorrect line of reasoning.

elpablo wrote:yup right, i was wrong... went down an incorrect line of reasoning.

No worries. Talking about complex rules like this makes all of us better players. :)

Kammikaze wrote:

elpablo wrote:yup right, i was wrong... went down an incorrect line of reasoning.

No worries. Talking about complex rules like this makes all of us better players. :)

I set the world ablaze with just a little question :o