I don't know if it's just me, but I've noticed an increasing number of traders from the US that won't trade into Canada and vice versa. The reasons I always hear are "it's too expensive," "it takes too long," "i'm not sure how it works cross border." So I thought I'd come in and clear some things up.

How to ship between US and Canada
- Use plain lettermail, in a bubble mailer or a plain envelope, whatever is agreed on. Attach an international stamp (or two if it's a bubble mailer)
- Drop in mailbox, very simple

Cost of shipping
- Cost is only the stamp. International stamps cost $1 going US -> Canada, and $1.05 going Canada -> US. This is less than $0.50 more than it costs to send a letter domestically

Shipping time
- This is the biggest one for people, and has the biggest misconception
- out of my 30ish trades, I'd say about 20-25 are to the US (I'm from Canada). MAYBE 3 of these trades have taken more than 5 business days to mail, and it was only because my trading partner lived in a very rural area of the country
- 95% of your trades btw Canada and US will take the exact same amount of time as a trade to an outside state or province in your own country. In fact, I've noticed that trades coming from British Columbia -> Ontario consistently take 2-3 days longer than trades from any city in the US. It's bullshit and/or bad luck that trades from the US to Canada take 2+ weeks. 95% of the time you're looking at 5-7 business days or less.


I hope this helps encourage more Canada <-> US trading, and change the minds of some of those "My country only" traders. There's really no reason to hold this policy, and it sucks for other traders. The cost and shipping time is the same, and the process is the same. If you're big shtick is with delivery confirmation, quit being so paranoid. The chances of you getting ripped off with DC are about as slim as your chances of being ripped off without it. Even so, there's no reason to COMPLETELY shut out a country from trading. If DC is such a big deal, make them send first if they don't have enough feedback, don't cut out the country completely.

/rant

Heh, as soon as you ship a bubble mailer to Canada, it's going to require a LOT more than a stamp or two, I recommend keeping it to envelopes if you can. At the post office, it's $7 to ship the Canada in a bubble mailer - also, remember that you need to fill out the customs form for those.

Not that it makes a huge difference either way, but it's $1.10 for international stamps from US to Canada (or to anywhere else in the world with the new Global Forever stamp).

asmodeanreborn wrote:Heh, as soon as you ship a bubble mailer to Canada, it's going to require a LOT more than a stamp or two, I recommend keeping it to envelopes if you can. At the post office, it's $7 to ship the Canada in a bubble mailer - also, remember that you need to fill out the customs form for those.

Agreed. I just tried to ship a bubble mailer as a "large envelope" for $2+, we'll see if it gets returned to me due to lack of customs form.

Ive only done a handful of trades with Canada and honestly I havent had any issue, with one exception being that I had put the wrong postage on and it was returned to me. I think the issue is mainly is the extra effort that is required to actually ship to Canada because you cant use PayPal Shipping (which alot of people use) OR more often than not you actually have to physically go to a Post office to get the correct postage as opposed to just putting a stamp on a package and dropping it on your way somewhere.

I know I personally have to plan accordingly to try and make to a Post office before it closes to send out to Canada because I work the same business hours as they are open. Its not a huge deal but its just something extra I need to make sure I can do to get the trade out in time.

There is also the risk of Customs just ripping open your package and losing/damaging the contents. Ive never experienced this but I heard first hand about it happening so that is also a legit concern.

I live fairly close to the border of Canada (Buffalo NY - GO SABRES) and that might be why my transactions with the Great White North have been flawless.

What are these "international stamps" you speak of? The last time I shipped to Canada it was a bubble mailer and when they rang it up it was $5 and some change.

And the last time I tried to send an envelope they wouldn't let me because the envelope was too small to put the customs form on. But you are telling me I can buy bigger envelopes and put a $1 stamp on it and be good?

Nighthawk wrote:

asmodeanreborn wrote:Heh, as soon as you ship a bubble mailer to Canada, it's going to require a LOT more than a stamp or two, I recommend keeping it to envelopes if you can. At the post office, it's $7 to ship the Canada in a bubble mailer - also, remember that you need to fill out the customs form for those.

Agreed. I just tried to ship a bubble mailer as a "large envelope" for $2+, we'll see if it gets returned to me due to lack of customs form.

You might get lucky - they have a thing they try to slip it through to see if it qualifies as large envelope, and they do it at random. If you have enough postage for the weight, they usually don't get too anal, though... but man, weight is something they DO get anal on. My company has had so many things returned because they weighed 0.2 oz over what the postage allowed for, and since we only estimate weight during checkout, it's not an easy problem to solve :(

shifty4690 wrote:What are these "international stamps" you speak of? The last time I shipped to Canada it was a bubble mailer and when they rang it up it was $5 and some change.

And the last time I tried to send an envelope they wouldn't let me because the envelope was too small to put the customs form on. But you are telling me I can buy bigger envelopes and put a $1 stamp on it and be good?

I've never had to fill out a customs form for a plain white envelope... I use the $0.86 stamps, stick it in my mailbox and let it go :) Of course this is for 1-3 cards in a top loader, so nothing to big or heavy.

The cost and inability to TRACK packages (without paying ~$40) to/from canada is my issue.

I've done some international trading, and I actually have an envelope going out to canada today. Its few and far between though. I don't like it. I cant prove mine got there, and the person sending it cant prove I got it.

Plus the customs forms are annoying as hell to fill out.

Over 200 successful trades with the US here.

shifty4690 wrote:What are these "international stamps" you speak of? The last time I shipped to Canada it was a bubble mailer and when they rang it up it was $5 and some change.

And the last time I tried to send an envelope they wouldn't let me because the envelope was too small to put the customs form on. But you are telling me I can buy bigger envelopes and put a $1 stamp on it and be good?

I'm responding to this one because this highlights the biggest problem of shipping from the US to Canada; the variance. From what I've determined as a receiver, there is FAR less oversight and consistency than the USPS actually suggests. Sometimes you can put $0.80 on a bubble mailer and be fine, sometimes you have to put $7 on a PWE.

The postage required is determined by the size/weight/thickness of the package. A plain envelope with singles in it can ship as regular mail, but if you stack your cards in one thick pile, or have too many in the envelope, the extra dimensions bump the postage up to a small parcel, which does add significantly. I recommend just biting the bullet and going directly to a post office; yes, it's annoying, but surely a bit of effort is worth having hundreds of new people to trade with.

In general, you won't have to fill out a customs form unless you're sending a parcel, and using a bubble mailer is the easiest way for them to identify that.

Really?? Bubble-mailer in Canada is considered lettermail if the weight of its contents are less than 30 grams (about 5-6 cards sandwiched between 2 top loaders is normally right on 30g). If it's lettermail, no custom forms required, you just need to use two stamps instead of one, so total cost is $2.10 + the bubble mailer. If it's more than 30 grams it's considered a Parcel, then it requires customs forms and a couple extra bucks.

Vincentarasin wrote:The cost and inability to TRACK packages (without paying ~$40) to/from canada is my issue.

I've done some international trading, and I actually have an envelope going out to canada today. Its few and far between though. I don't like it. I cant prove mine got there, and the person sending it cant prove I got it.

Plus the customs forms are annoying as hell to fill out.

Having an issue with tracking basically means you have an issue with trust. If that's the problem, just have your partner send first. Statistically speaking, the probability of your letter being lost in the mail is infinitesimal.

Listen to Paul_K up there, he knows what he's talking about. All my local postal workers know me and know that I'm always mailing cardboard and that every envelope should be weighed and checked. No way would I ever just slap a stamp on an envelope and throw it in a mailbox.

Temckena wrote:Really?? Bubble-mailer in Canada is considered lettermail if the weight of its contents are less than 30 grams (about 5-6 cards sandwiched between 2 top loaders is normally right on 30g). If it's lettermail, no custom forms required, you just need to use two stamps instead of one, so total cost is $2.10 + the bubble mailer. If it's more than 30 grams it's considered a Parcel, then it requires customs forms and a couple extra bucks.

Their shipping system isn't the same as ours.

Hmmm well I find this all very interesting. I will have to try again and do a relatively small trade to Canada and see if any of this works out better than it has in the past. I ALWAYS go to the PO in person and I have asked if there was a cheaper way to do it, but I guess they didn't want to tell me about it or didn't know.

So... who wants to do a trade?

Temckena wrote: Statistically speaking, the probability of your letter being lost in the mail is infinitesimal.

Got some backup data on that? Because I've had 3 go missing in my 185ish trades.

I've also got extensive experience mailing stuff in the US. Perhaps you have more faith in your mail system. I don't have any more faith in the canadian mail system, than I do the american one.

Temckena wrote:

Vincentarasin wrote:The cost and inability to TRACK packages (without paying ~$40) to/from canada is my issue.

I've done some international trading, and I actually have an envelope going out to canada today. Its few and far between though. I don't like it. I cant prove mine got there, and the person sending it cant prove I got it.

Plus the customs forms are annoying as hell to fill out.

Having an issue with tracking basically means you have an issue with trust. If that's the problem, just have your partner send first. Statistically speaking, the probability of your letter being lost in the mail is infinitesimal.

Yes, some of us do have an issue trusting people on the internet that have the power of anonymity behind them. Having the other person ship first does nothing as far as Deckbox is concerned, all they need to do is claim that they never got them, open a Bad Trade Report, and then your trade reputation is tarnished forever, unless you have proof that the cards arrived there, AKA Delivery Confirmation.

I've done smaller trades to Canada without too many issues, but I have very well founded hesitation in shipping anything worth any significant amount of money to a place where I have no ability to prove my case. I can just as easily be out a large amount of money in that case, because I'll either need to ship back the cards that they sent me, or take a hit to my reputation and possibly risk getting disallowed from trading altogether if I refuse to do so.

I'm actually a very trusting guy, sometimes to a fault. I've had trades go wrong in both directions and it all has ended amicably, without any issues. But just having "Trust" isn't worth it to me when I have literally zero chance of protecting myself from getting screwed, be that by the post office or an individual.

NullParameter wrote:But just having "Trust" isn't worth it to me when I have literally zero chance of protecting myself from getting screwed, be that by the post office or an individual.

Truth. This mod has it right.

I wish for the life of me I could find the study, but an investigation done about 10ish years ago had something like the following for USPS:

5% of mail does not reach sender, of that
- 3% is returned to sender
- 1% is forwarded
- 1% is discarded

It's not exact, but you're looking at roughly 1% of mail being trashed. This is including mail that is a) illegible, and b) not given a "return address", c) sent by incompetent people. this was over 10 years ago, not sure if things have gotten worse or better, but losing 3 packages of 186 is definitely higher than average.

that's not really the point though. were these trades all lost because they were international (if they were all international)? or just because of bad luck? the point i'm trying to make with this (albeit i didn't know alot of these annoying policies of the US mail system) is that even though it's a little more work for trades involving lots of cards, you aren't really increasing your exposure to loss by trading to canada.

Temckena wrote:the point i'm trying to make with this (albeit i didn't know alot of these annoying policies of the US mail system) is that even though it's a little more work for trades involving lots of cards, you aren't really increasing your exposure to loss by trading to canada.

Actually, You are increasing your risk by trading to canada (or any other mail system beyond your own).

Here's the question I have for you. Do you know why the risk increases? Or would you like for me to explain it to you? (PS. I already gave you a hint)

Yesterday, I shipped a #000 bubble mailer with 4 cards in 2 toploaders from Canada going to the US from the post office. It weighed 32g and it cost me 2.65$ as it was apparently a light packet (up to 100g) to the US. I've looked around the Canada Post site and for an item to be considered letter mail, it need to be maximum 5mm thich, so there's no way the bubble mailer can qualify. I've also been told by Canada Post on the phone that there is no way I can send my bubble mailer myself in a mailbox, I always have to go to the post office so they can weigh it. So basically:

Toploader in a plain white envelope Canada -> US: 1.10$ for < 30g, 1.34$ for 30g to 50g
Bubble mailer Canada -> US: 2.65$ for under 100g but you have to go to the post office.

Temckena wrote:yes yes vince, i get it, lack of DC is scary.

No, actually, you apparently don't. I asked if you understood why the risk is increased (in reference to your "increasing exposure to loss").
The base risk is increased because (in the case of US to canada, or vice versa); All of the risk from the canadian system is added onto the risk from the US system, + customs.

(The order is irrelevant for my example; though it would matter for actually calculating risk unless they are statistically the same reliability)
Having DC just keeps people honest, and gives some recourse if a trade goes bad to "save" your reputation.

Moral of the story: Don't go on a rant if someone will shut you down with basic science.

Deleting posts on a rant, masquerading as a "PSA"...

Really? I was simply educating you on.. well.. common sense.
Either way, I think the point got across.

As an actuary, your math isn't completely correct (look up union of independent probabilities, its not just base risk + base risk, you have so subtract the combined risk).

the point i'm trying to make, is that it seems a little unreasonable to exclude a large portion of the deckbox population from trading with you over an extra 0.5% (probably less) chance of you mail being lost.

internet fights aren't my thing, i was hoping my post would be deleted before it fed the fire..

I have had several deals in Canada from the US (me) and a couple was $100+. I don't send into Canada unless the deal is worth while. I would rather not spend $7 and fill out the customs form, but it does depend on the deal. There is a couple that I have dealt with that sends quickly. A couple actually did wait til my cards showed first (due to low feedback rating), but did get my cards and got theirs.

With any deal, I expect the cards to be not delivered for 5-7 days (nationally) and 14-21 days (internationally). I have the time and patience and don't worry about it.

Best suggestion is that if you send like I do, make the deal worth your while and expect them not to appear until the week after you make the deal. This way you do NOT feel panicky about them not showing up and actually do feel good when they finally show up.

Temckena wrote:As an actuary, your math isn't completely correct (look up union of independent probabilities, its not just base risk + base risk, you have so subtract the combined risk).

the point i'm trying to make, is that it seems a little unreasonable to exclude a large portion of the deckbox population from trading with you over an extra 0.5% (probably less) chance of you mail being lost.

internet fights aren't my thing, i was hoping my post would be deleted before it fed the fire..

Based on that, using some basic examples.
5% US risk
5% Canadian risk
5% of 5% = 0.25%
Thus combined, 9.75% on postal service, + unknown from customs.

K bro, you got me for a quarter percent. I was keeping it simple since you missed it in the first place ^_^

Also, failing to read. I never said the *risk* was why I didn't like trading to Canada.
Moral of story stands.

I was using 0.5% as my base risk (rough estimate based on the rough numbers i referenced above) 0.5+0.5-0.5^2 = 0.75 vs the 0.5 of trading in usa, difference 0.25.

you're right, the risk is higher than i initially implied. and yes, dc is a different issue. internet-truce? =)

1% would be your base risk, by your own numbers.

I see it as much more, but sure.

Well I have traded Alot with the states. Nothing has gone wrong yet, (I hope it stays that way), But that being said, I Check to see what trades they have done, Ask questions, etc. The people at the post office know me pretty well now haha.

Man Vincent you really need to calm down.

I don't think anyone is saying the risk isn't higher when you go through multiple mail systems, but it doesn't go up as high as you think it does.

Let's say you have a 5% chance of your mail being lost in the US postal service, another 5% of it being lost in Canada, and just for argument's sake, another 5% in customs. So for each one you have a 95% chance of your mail making it through, and it has to make it through all three systems in one go. That means the chances of your mail getting lost is

1 - (.95 * .95 * .95) = 14.3%

Not great odds, and you'd probably never take this chance. But that implies that on average, 1 out of every 20 letters goes missing. You yourself only lost 3 out of 185 packages, which is only 1.5%. That makes the chances

1 - (.985 * .985 * .985) = 4.4%

Now, we can argue about the relative success rates of our various postal services but it sounds like that's not the point. You originally said that you don't like shipping without tracking, and I think people were questioning whether tracking a package changes the probabilities above.

Woah. I love the philosophy insert :)

I have no opinion on this matter since I haven't had or much considered problems with my Canada trades (I'm in the US). Just passing through this thread :)

Thanks for the insight on how to trade to Canada, though. I'll have to try some of this stuff next time.