Topic: Jund Flunged

Yeah, terrible name, I know.... But it makes a bit of sense once you get into it. 

http://deckbox.org/sets/236986

The general idea is to get out a lot of big creatures quickly by making use of all the creatures with downsides, like Treacherous Pit-Dweller and Desecration Demon, and other similar tricks to just get out big creatures.  We don't care about them staying out on the battlefield for very long, so we don't care about the downsides all that much.  If things go to plan, they'll never have to attack.  And if things don't go to plan, then we have a whole bunch of big creatures that will hopefully get the job done regardless smile

All of the damage will hopefully be done via Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord sacrificing creatures to drain life, Fling to sacrifice creatures and deal damage and other such things.  Desecration Demon can either be sac'd right away for an immediate 6 damage, or let him stick around for a while to let him attack and/or build up for an even bigger fling later on.  Treacherous Pit-Dweller is obviously a bit trickier to work with, but I think he can easily work because we have things like Deathrite Shaman, Cremate and Vile Rebirth to exile him from the graveyard before Undying resolves.  All of those bring some big upsides (extra cards, extra life or extra creatures), and work very well with the deck in general because there will hopefully be a few things going to the graveyard.

Grisly Salvage and Jarad's Orders both feed your hand and graveyard as well.  Creatures in the graveyard are generally a good thing because they help out all of those spells mentioned before (Deathrite Shaman, Cremate and Vile Rebirth), but they also pump up Jarad, which can also be a great target for a Fling.


I think I have a lot of great synergy going on, but at this point I'm not sure what I should be cutting to get the deck down to a reasonable size.  Any thoughts/ideas?

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Re: Jund Flunged

So I'm admittedly not seeing where Pack Rat really fits in here.  Sure he could pump out some more rats, but really, you're working with much bigger creatures to sack.  He's a monster if you build an all rat deck or work him with populate, but in this context, I'm not seeing his use... so that's 4 cards you can stand to lose.

Second, you're using 2x Traitorous Instinct, but you could just as easily use Mark of Mutiny - it still takes a creature, sure it only pumps one, but it also costs three rather than four (always a plus).  Act of Treason is another alternative at three CMC.

Third, I wouldn't stress Treacherous Pit-Dweller here.  Not only does he require several pieces that don't really fit the theme of the deck to keep him from screwing you over, but he wouldn't be an ideal target to sack because you would NEED a means to exile him from the graveyard before undying resolves.  Why make a move conditional if you don't have to?  If you drop him, and Vile Rebirth that makes 8 more cards you can lose - we're already down to 67.

Fourth, as much as Rancor rocks it's still not really fitting the scheme here.  Sure, you pump your creature an added two before you sack and do damage, only to get the enchantment back, but you're unlikely to attack with the creatures with Rancor. Even if you did, Cryptborn Horror already has trample, Jarad isn't supposed to attack, Desecration Demon already has flying, and Hellhole Flailer already unleashes and can sack to himself.  I also envision you getting more bang out of Rush of Blood or Auger Spree but if you're wanting to keep your CMC down, I would suggest dropping one or both of those in place of at least one more Rancor - I think of them as being an all or nothing card in this design.  That's a net of two more cards if you increase Rancor and drop the others or drop Rancor and leave the others - 65.

Fifth, I can see using Cremate for easy card draw and Grisly Salvage to help pull lands or creatures, but 4x Jarad's Orders?  You could easily drop to 2x of the Orders and add one (or more) Grisly Salvage - remember that you can pull Jarad out of the graveyard if the Salvage drops him.  But outside of that, what if the salvage forces you to dump something really good?  As a possible option, Treasured Find won several games for me at pre-release.  You could keep it in mind, but don't add it unless you really need to.  so dropping 2x Orders but adding 1x Salvage puts you at 64 now.

Personally I'd make up those last four cards by dropping 2x Jarad and 2x Cryptborn Horror.  For Jarad, you don't want to be sitting on an extra one or two of him in your hand, especially when you can dump lands to get him back in a pinch.  For the Horror, in a turn when you don't end up hurting them (which should be few and far between here) he's a totally worthless creature that would come in as a 0/0.  Since he could be great, keep the 2x, but for every time he could be a beast you'll likely have a time he will be useless.  Those last four and you're at 60.

BAM!

That aside, I think a deck like this SCREAMS for Death's Presence - I know it's expensive, but man, then those sacks just get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Lastly, I'm not seeing any removal beyond taking their creatures and sacking them or Auger Spree.  This could be a problem.
Best luck!

Re: Jund Flunged

Since Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord is a Legendary Creature, you can never have more than one of him out at a time.  Given that limitation, you can certainly cut one of him, and possibly two.

For only one more mana, you can get Zealous Conscripts instead of Traitorous Instinct.  The trade-off is Traitorous Instinct's +2 versus having an extra creature on the field.

You'll need to decide if you want to manage Treacherous Pit-Dweller: getting rid of it in favor of something else means you can also get rid of those cards you included so as to remove TP-D from your graveyard.

I like Cryptborn Horror, but believe it gets better with burn--that way it does not rely only on combat damage.

Since you are not running a lot of Rats, there's a good chance your Pack Rat stays a 2-drop 1/1. Blood Seeker and Highborn Ghoul might be decent options. I'm partial to Daggerdrome Imp (2-drop 1/1 with Lifelink and Flying). Rix Maadi Guildmage might prove useful, too.

If really wanting to get some cards in your graveyard, I'd focus on something that gives you removal at the same time, like Launch Party.  It was a game changer in many of the pre-release matches I watched (and was in) because it gives you removal for any creature of any size while also dinging your opponent's life total.

Of course, these are just my opinions.  In the end, you need to have a deck you enjoy playing, so take what you like and feel free to leave the rest.

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Black and Blue--not just for bruises anymore.

Re: Jund Flunged

I just want to preface this by saying that the numbers of cards were mainly just "Start with 4 of everything and narrow down from there."  So I wasn't actually expecting to necessarily keep four of everything, and some things I just forgot to update the numbers (like Grisly Salvage).

Pack Rat was there because it both feeds the graveyard to help both pump Jarad and give those graveyard exile cards more to work with, and it creates an ever growing number of ever growing creatures that can easily be sacrificed to deal damage.  Discard two cards and you have three 3/3s, plus you can use those discarded cards to deal damage, gain life, draw more cards, etc.

I'm a bit reluctant to get rid of Treacherous Pit-Dweller, regardless of the necessary additional cards to make him work properly.  2 mana for a 4/3 is very hard to pass up, and at the moment I have a lot of things to remove it from the graveyard.  But yeah, it definitely is a bit risky.  Even if we remove him though, getting rid of the Vile Rebirths might not be the best idea, because that can combat a lot of other decks as well, like anything using Gravecrawler, Undying or Reanimator type decks.

Traitorous Instinct was just a random idea I had, and the +2/+0 is basically the whole point of it.  A temporary bump to increase the damage done when I sacrifice it.  My issue with using something like Mark of Mutiny is that they could do something like destroy Jarad before I can sacrifice their creature, and then I'm just giving them their creature back, bigger and better. Act of Treason is cheaper by 1, but it doesn't give the pump, and I think that the extra one mana is worth the extra two damage.  And yes, I actually very much like Zealous Conscripts instead, totally forgot about that!

The same general principle applies to Rancor.  I'm not using it to give my creatures trample, I'm using it as a 1 mana 2 damage bump that can be reused again and again, which is really powerful, personally, especially if I get a couple of them that I can continually recur over and over.  The plan isn't ever to attack unless I have to, even with something like Cryptborn Horror I don't particularly care about the fact that it has trample, but rather the fact that I can sac a Desecration Demon for 6+ damage and then have Cryptborn Horror come into play just that much bigger, and for only 3 mana.

You're right that I don't really have all that much removal, which could be a problem, but I'm not entirely sure what to do about it.  I'm not sure if I want to include more Auger Sprees because they can fail to kill my opponent's creatures if they get too big, and they can fail to pump my creatures if they aren't big enough.

Thanks for all of the suggestions guys, definitely appreciated since this was just a random idea I had and threw together in a few minutes.  Definitely still a work in progress.  Here are the changes I made so far:

-4 Pack Rat
-2 Cryptborn horror
-4 Treacherous Pit-Dweller
-2 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
+2 Zealous Conscripts
-2 Traitorous Instinct
+3 Grisly Salvage
-2 Jarad's Orders


Although I'm still at 68 cards, and currently lacking a two drop creature (still looking at options, including the ones suggested).

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Re: Jund Flunged

Ok, so it may not be the best card, especially for this kind of an aggressive strategy, but I feel like Mikey the unhallowed would be really nice here, it won't work with Zealous Conscripts or Cryptborn Horror, it also won't work with an Unleashed Hellhole Flailer, but it would give you a second chance to sac stuff which could be the critical thing that you need for this deck to finish someone. I wouldn't go above 2 and would only recommend 1.

I also feel like maybe the library to graveyard cards aren't really needed, they seem to just take up room in the deck, but I can see how checking the next 5 cards for the last mana you need or your Jared could be good. Also Augur Spree seems like it should be cut in favor of strict removal, it's only going to work with fling on your demon cause by the time it resolves your creature is in the graveyard and cannot be Sacced with 0 or less toughness

http://deckbox.org/users/imsully2

Re: Jund Flunged

Yes, "Mikey" could definitely be an interesting addition, although he does have a pretty prohibitive mana cost with BBB.

Auger Spree can also work on Jarad if there are enough creatures in the graveyard, and Cryptborn Horror when setup correctly.  But I do definitely agree that it could probably be something better.  Any suggestions for better removal?

The only cards that I have that really put stuff into the graveyard are Grisly Salvage and Jarad's Orders.  Jarad's Orders also lets me search for a creature I need and doesn't require that I put one in the graveyard, and salvage helps me dig for a creature or land I need and the remaining cards can feed things like Cremate, Deathrite Shaman and Vile Rebirth, so they aren't even close to lost cards.

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Re: Jund Flunged

I wouldn't stress Vile Rebirth too much if you're sitting on 4x Cremate and 4x Deathrite Shaman.  Between those two you're already sitting on 8 ways to dump that pesky Gravecrawler/Geralf's Messenger/insert undying creature here.

For Grisly Salvage I can openly say it helped me win at least three games at pre-release simply because of the mana balancing act you have to pull in RTR world.  That and grabbing a good creature four turns earlier is always nice.  Nevermind the fact that Deathrite Shaman makes full use of everything that's in there - whether it be land, spells, or creatures.

I'm with ya on the Rancor front it seems like a multi-use item here, hence why I'd suggest either running with it or running the other pump spells.  Personally, I'd go with the Rancors if you have them as they're less mana intensive, more versatile, and, to be honest, just a better card in general.

For the hard removal, there are so many options to work with.  If you're looking to break the bank Abrupt Decay is obviously nice, but I would say, since you have limited space to work with, go with something that can stretch beyond their three drop - which means, as boring as it is, Murder, Tribute to Hunger, Dreadbore (again pricey but it would be perfect here), or Ultimate Price.

Re: Jund Flunged

This is what I did now, but I'm still not entirely sure about all the changes because they make me sad to lose them, but they make sense......

-4 Vile Rebirth
-2 Auger Spree
-2 Jarad's Orders
+2 Murder (Cheap option)

The one issue with running Rancor entirely over the other pump spells is that Deathrite Shaman actually can't do anything with Rancor if it gets dumped from a Grisly Salvage, but it can do something with a Rush of Blood or other similar pump spells.  So, I'm not entirely sure what I want to run more.....  At this point in time I have 2 Rancor and 2 Rush of Blood and I'm two cards heavy in my deck......

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Re: Jund Flunged

NullParameter wrote:

The one issue with running Rancor entirely over the other pump spells is that Deathrite Shaman actually can't do anything with Rancor if it gets dumped from a Grisly Salvage, but it can do something with a Rush of Blood or other similar pump spells.  So, I'm not entirely sure what I want to run more.....  At this point in time I have 2 Rancor and 2 Rush of Blood and I'm two cards heavy in my deck......

I'm 100% on board with Rancor over Rush of Blood, you're going to be re-using it anyway so you shouldn't have it in the graveyard in the first place.

http://deckbox.org/users/imsully2

Re: Jund Flunged

imsully2 wrote:

I'm 100% on board with Rancor over Rush of Blood, you're going to be re-using it anyway so you shouldn't have it in the graveyard in the first place.

In the ideal world, that is definitely true, but in reality it could easily be thrown to the graveyard by Grisly Salvage or if it gets countered, or if they destroy the creature that I'm targeting it at (thus countering it since the target is no longer valid).  At least if Rush of Blood gets countered or discarded I can still use the Deathrite Shaman to drain a couple life, where Rancor is only usable by Cremate.  I guess only playtesting will tell which is better....

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