Topic: Creaturless

Trying to make this good enough for fnm. I think this deck could be really fun to play.
Please any suggestions more then welcome.

http://deckbox.org/sets/357555

creeping in my sideboard Im thinking about but not sure, Two green is gonna make me have to rebalance mana

just dont want burning vengeance getting blown out of the game

Re: Creaturless

You might want to consider changing some of the Simic Guildgate to Izzet guildgate.
Creeping Renaissance also isn't likely to help you much unless your enchantments are getting canceled. The only other permanents in your deck are lands.
I see what you're trying to do with burning vengence, and it seems pretty good, however it is possible to shut this deck down with a single witchbane orb. You may want to look into something like vandalblast,smelt, or ancient grudge.
Check out curse of echoes to go with you curse of bloodletting. Worst case scenario you get some worthless pump spells. best case scenario you send their own spells back at them for double damage.
Also, since you already need green for one of your flashbacks, you might consider sideboarding some fog in case you get stuck without removal versus a creature heavy deck.

It does look like a promising deck, play with it some and let us know how it goes

Re: Creaturless

The simic is in there for the flashback and if I need to bring in Natuaralize witch I like better then the red artifact only alternative because it deals with enchantments To.


Creeping renaissance was a thought in case of some kind of mass enchantment wipe but I think double G cast is going to throw things off . Ill have to depend on Memories journey to recycle any enchantments that get destroyed I guess.

Witchbane isnt really a problem there is only 1 curse in the deck, nothing a naturalize cant handle Or cyclonic rift/izzets charm if there is allot of trouble on the board.

Creatures shouldnt be to much problem as burning vengeance can target creatures or player. If I get overwhelmed to fast cyclonic rift FTW.

What I really fear with this deck right now is graveyard removal mostly, And super fast big agro. Witch seems to be everywhere right now.


Ive played this deck about 4 times so far. The two big problems I ran into was a White deck witch promptly O-ringed my vengeance and threatened to put Rest in peace in from his sideboard ( hence the naturalize and Izzet's). dont know if these are the best solutions but I cant find better.

Second was Green agro with naturalizes ( hence Memories journey )


Rest in peace or similar cards I think Im pretty much screwed at that point. Unless I can counter it Im hosed.

Re: Creaturless

You may want to look at Witchbane Orb's second paragraph again, that isn't flavor text. Hexproof on the player could seriously shut this deck down.

Re: Creaturless

I know they're absurdly expensive AND would clash with your whole no-creatures theme... but Snapcaster Mage?  Or on the cheaper end, Past in Flames?

Beyond that, I'm not so sure I see this really being competitive at FNM unless your local meta is mostly home-brews.  I could easily see a control deck eating you alive about 10 seconds after they realize your biggest weapon is Burning Vengeance.  Against a well conditioned Aggro deck I also don't see you making it past turn 5 without some added removal options.

More specific thoughts, I would suggest the following changes:

1) Drop 1-2 of the Arcane Melees - they're nice and help reduce the cost of things, but let's be honest, after you get one out, another one is just a dead draw.  The only thing a second one would even help is Devil's Play.

2) Shattered Perception really isn't all that good.  Most of your spells you probably would like to cast the first time before you flash them back, so the idea of just shedding your hand doesn't strike me as ideal.  Further, it's not like you're struggling for drawing effects with Desolate Lighthouse, Desperate Ravings, Faithless Looting, and Think Twice.  I would drop all three and slide in some more directed burn/removal.  I'm thinking Mizzium Mortars, or, if you prefer to damage the opponent, Brimstone Volley/Searing Spear.  You NEED that added burn for Dryad Militant.

3) I, honestly, wouldn't even worry for a moment about your enchantments being taken out.  NOBODY runs enchantment hate mainboard and then even if they side things in, you're looking at 2-3 cards max.  So I would drop Memory's Journey (conveniently removing the need for ANY green mana) in place of Mystic Retrieval or Silent Departure.

4) Rolling Temblor is a great card and certainly does some solid work, but it MIGHT not have enough reach if you're playing mid-range decks.  What do you do when you're staring down a Thragtusk or Restoration Angel?  I'd actually suggest running Cackling Counterpart to be able to provide some sort of defense in those cases when necessary.

5) Lastly, keep answers in your board for enchantments and artifacts that could totally screw you over.  Lear has already pointed out Witchbane Orb which shuts down even Burning Vengeance but also be wary of Rest in Peace/Grafdigger's Cage; Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere; and Nevermore.   

At the end of the day, just playtest to see how well it runs.  That will the the ultimate advice-giver, as it were.  Often it seems like we have a genius idea with the combos and everything looks great on paper, only to fail miserably once it comes time to actually play.

Re: Creaturless

well let me take this a piece at a time.

Snapcaster or past in flames wouldnt have any effects at all in my deck I dont think. everything already has flashback.

Control might be a problem that is why I have memorys journey to recycle any burning vengeance that get counter spelled.

Agro shouldn't be to much of a problem, burning vengeance can shoot creatures as well. For them most part if you can blow up there initial 4 or so critters they tend to stall out waiting on the draw.

I kinda agree with your thoughts on shattered perception all tho it gets Vengeance food out faster

Considering almost everything in the deck IS burn/removal through Vengeance I don't understand this one.

Might trim arcane melee down . Not sure  what you mean about it affecting devil's play as far as I understand the rules it has no effect on devils play at all.

Militant wouldn't even get to finish the turn it was summoned onto the table. One flashback cast and hes gone.

I had Silent departure in the deck but switched out for the cyclonic rift witch is way better.

Tremblor works great for token decks and such. for thrag either use it then a Vengeance shot or just a couple Vengeance shots

All of the last cards mentioned is why I Side boarded 4 naturalize. I know its green but its the best I know of for artifacts AND enchantments.

Love the suggestions guys got me thinkin. keep em coming. If i can get this deck to work may NOT win but damn itll be fun seeing their faces smile


that and as a side note, I really hate the fact that EVERYBODY is playing G/W agro like that's the only thing in print so I want to do something different.

Re: Creaturless

So to clarify point-by-point,

First off, the benefits of Snapcaster Mage and Past in Flames is to open the door so that you CAN use spells that don't have flashback.  If you tie yourself only to items that already have flashback, that's REALLY limiting your options.  You said that you pulled Silent Departure for Cyclonic Rift because it's more effective, so why not do the same for some of the other cards given that you can now flash other things back?

Control WILL be a problem as they're going to be hitting you with counters that exile things - Dissipate and Syncopate are very much a thing.  You won't have any chance to get things back from the 'yard.  Further, if they're smart, they'll see what you're doing after game one and can just counter Burning Vengeance - this leaves you with ZERO options to win.

Aggro still is a problem, as a quality aggro build will kill you by turn four given your current lack of direct removal or blockers.  Yes, Burning Vengeance can target creatures, but it requires you to hit your three drop perfectly and then have more than one flashback spell in the yard already to be able to zap them with.  That's an awful lot you need to go right just to take out 2-3 creatures.  Also, keep in mind how haste will play into things - can you generate three damage at instant speed to deal with a Dreg Mangler?  Further, can you do so consistently?

If you're just looking to rip through cards, Reforge the Soul or Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded are more consistent and cheaper options to cycle things into the yard.  Then you still have a hand AND can do things with flashback.

The lack of burn/removal I'm stating is the more direct variety that doesn't rely on you having Vengeance on the field.  Again, to manage that you need to have drawn vengeance, get it on the field, and THEN have a flashback spell ready to go... just to deal two damage.  Searing Spear requires two mana... that's it.

With regard to Arcane Melee and Devil's Play, if you reduce the colorless X cost by two, that means you can essentially cast it with an X of two for just one red mana.  So to that end, it would pump the X to four if you have a second one in play, but otherwise a second copy of Melee is a dead card.   It's the same as if you run Pearl Medallion and cast White Sun's Zenith or any other cost reducer like that.  In many regards, you'd be just as well off to try running Goblin Electromancer to see if you can get the same amount of use out of it.

Militant would be an easy target, again, assuming you have all the criteria for a vengeance burn to work... nevermind how many spells it might've exiled on your path to get there.  Again raising the question for more directed burn spells.

Silent Departure was simply something to work with flashback if you're intent on everything having it.  Cyclonic Rift is most definitely a more versatile card (but note the lack of flashback).

So your answer for Thragtusk is that you end up casting and wasting FOUR Vengeance shots?  Lest we not forget he produces the beast token when he dies.  So that's now shifted you to trading four-for-one.  In a world where competitive card advantage is kind of important, that's a trade you would NEVER want to make.  Nevermind that Restoration Angel is also a very real possibility, one that definitely doesn't get touched by Temblor.  Don't forget creatures with regeneration or that grow beyond immediate burn range like Champion of the Parish - which can easily be a 3/3 or 4/4 on turn 2.  Temblor is a good card, but keep in mind its limitations.  In my experience, it's a SB card.

For Naturalize - again, great card, but hardly worth splashing an entirely new color for just that.  If you were sitting on a full playset of the shocks to get green into the mix, that'd be one thing, but three guildgates just won't get you there.  Why not just splash some blue countermagic to deal with those possibilities?  Smelt deals with Grafdigger's Cage but beyond that, I think you might have to just acknowledge that Rest in Peace will totally hose your plan.

Again, playtesting will be the best measure, but I just don't see where a deck without any direct, immediate defenses will survive long.  It might be a blast to play casually, but in a competitive standard environment, you're going to be frustrated.

Re: Creaturless

I'm going to have to resound on what TyWoo is talking about.  In today's standard, you're going to need more than Burning Vengeance to win with this.

I have a creature-less build myself (mind you, in modern) that works with a lot more burn and counter magic.  Counter what you can, burn what you can't. 

Since you are within the confines of standard, I wholeheartedly recommend getting some searing spears, dissipates, and maybe even thunderous wraths.  Also maybe some Mizzium Mortars for the sideboard for aggro matchups.  I can tell you that a good Boros build will completely steamroll you before you even get set up.

Re: Creaturless

You guys are making me sad tongue

I dont wanna play the standard issue agro decks that are around right now. gimmie some options here


Dont make me play a thragtusk/ angels ramp and rancor generic I cant think for myself deck ....


I do appreciate the comments tho smile

Re: Creaturless

There's nothing wrong with wanting to do something different.  All we're saying is that you need to pack answers for the crap that everyone else is playing, otherwise you won't have very much fun getting your ass stomped by those generic thrag/rancor aggro builds.