Topic: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

If you have a trade proposed and accepted then canceled why can't you leave negative feedback? 

2. Trade negotiation

2.1 After the trade is accepted and addresses exchanged, there is no backing out. The transaction is considered confirmed. If a user needs to back out because he cannot complete (for objective reasons, like missing cards) the trade, he must be willing to negotiate a compensatory trade with the other party.

I feel the rules should not include the "addresses exchanged"

2.1 (revised) After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out. The transaction is considered confirmed. If a user needs to back out because he cannot complete (for objective reasons, like missing cards) the trade, he must be willing to negotiate a compensatory trade with the other party.

Last edited by Wally_H (2013-07-19 14:12:38)

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

According to Deckbox rules:

3.2 Neutral Feedback does not affect a user's Percentile, and is to be used at a user's discretion. However, it is strongly suggested that users submit a neutral rating to any transaction that suffers from two or more 'bad trading practices,' including but not limited to:

Rude or aggressive behavior
Exceptionally poor communication
Tardiness in shipping without notice
Insufficient protection of goods
Misrepresentation of goods

3.3 Negative feedback may only be left with staff approval. Users desiring to leave negative feedback must file a Bad Trading Report. Users leaving negative feedback without staff approval will be sanctioned. Negative feedback will generally be approved for the following reasons:

Scamming and attempts to rip users off
Refusing / Ignoring to answer deckbox staff or moderators on trade issues and Bad Trading Report resolutions
Lying about when cards were sent or received, or about card conditions
Backing out of a confirmed trade and refusing to renegotiate a compensatory trade

In this particular case, neutral feedback should suffice as your trade partner did not violate any rules that warrants negative feedback. The purpose of considering trades confirmed after addresses have been exchanged is to help prevent traders from sending their cards prematurely.

There have been BTRs filed where traders have cancelled the trade even after addresses were confirmed. As long as no cards were sent by either party, the Deckbox Team will generally only permit positive or neutral feedback. This is because there is no loss on either side - except for time, which can be marked appropriately by leaving neutral feedback.

Profile | Sell / Trade List

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

More than time was lost in this case. The cards we were trading have lost value, other trades could have happened at higher value if this trade had not been accepted and addresses confirmed

The site rules specifically state this is not alowed
2.1 After the trade is accepted and addresses exchanged, there is no backing out. The transaction is considered confirmed.

Rule 3.3 states Negative feedback will generally be approved for the following reasons:
Backing out of a confirmed trade and refusing to renegotiate a compensatory trade

By telling me I can not leave negative feedback for someone who has clearly broke the rules your giving him and anyone else that does it permission to do so.

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

I have the email proving he confirmed his mailing address before he canceled the trade

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

You do realize that all you are actually doing with this crusade is making people feel like they don't want to trade with you, right? I consider it to be bullying behavior, and the digital equivalent of flipping a table after losing a game.

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

Moved from Wally_h's bad trade report.

It looks like he was willing to trade, until you started making unreasonable(to him, not you) demands--you were pushing him to send out the cards on your schedule, not his. If you needed the cards immediately, then you should have specified that prior to confirming the trade. It's reasonable to assume that it might take someone a few days to dig out a few cards and get to a post office; the guy might have to ride a bus or two to get to a post office that he can ship his cards out of, or might need to get shipping materials.
You are not out anything at all on this trade, and neither is he. There was no realized loss. You have your cards, he has his cards, nothing was actually transferred, other than you receiving an unwarranted positive feedback on the trade. Even if the price of the cards had dropped 30 bucks, you did not truly lose anything, as you still have your cards. Instead of wasting your and his time trying to ruin a guy who has just started out trading's reputation, go off and make another trade. You have your blurb in your box and can leave neutral feedback, and that's enough. Don't continue to be unreasonable over this.
Edit: Relevant and important: G_G_B did leave positive feedback, offered to send a few black cats to Wally_H. He was willing to 'compensate' Wally_h for his time, as per Wally_h's request.
Last edited by Kizudarake (Today 09:43:56)

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

I voted yes...

BUT, you never tried to make a compensatory _trade_ with him.  You demanded a one sided trade of extremely small value, less than a dollar.  IMO, after reading the thread you really came off as a jerk and I can see why he didn't want to listen to you.  You bashed him over the head with rules immediately. 

We had a trade proposed and accepted, addresses exchanged and then Giant_Glass_Box canceled. I had offers out to other traders and dropped all of those because that trade had been accepted. Now back to square one and I feel I should be allowed to leave negative feedback.

Giant_Glass_Box    Will do. It might be next week before I send. Crazy busy right now.    17 Jul
Wally_H    ouch, next week...    17:13
Wally_H    tomorrow or the next day ok, but I wish you would have said something about sending next week before confirming the trade.    17:16
Giant_Glass_Box    No worries. I don't need them that bad. Sorry to waste your time.    22:08
Wally_H    the trade rules say that your not allowed to cancel the trade after you confirmed your address    01:41

If you were depending on cards from Glass to make your other trades maybe you shouldn't trade with cards you don't have in the future.  Patience is a virtue they say. If you would have just waited to get the cards from glass before committing other trades then maybe you wouldn't be so butt-hurt right now.  He apologized for not being able to get them out in time.  He's obviously either never traded or not been on here very long and some understanding for the rules should be given.

So in Glasses case, I think neutral feed back is appropriate, and wally should try to be more upfront and open with what he's going to do with the cards before he confirms _his_ address, especially with a new guy.

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

elpablo wrote:

BUT, you never tried to make a compensatory _trade_ with him.  You demanded a one sided trade of extremely small value, less than a dollar.

I did try to have a compensatory trade with him he offered me a few .15 cards I countered with a .97 cent card he refused to negotiate further.

elpablo wrote:

You bashed him over the head with rules immediately.

Giant_Glass_Box    Will do. It might be next week before I send. Crazy busy right now.    17 Jul
Wally_H    ouch, next week...    17:13
Wally_H    tomorrow or the next day ok, but I wish you would have said something about sending next week before confirming the trade.    17:16
Giant_Glass_Box    No worries. I don't need them that bad. Sorry to waste your time.    22:08
Wally_H    the trade rules say that your not allowed to cancel the trade after you confirmed your address    01:41

He waited until after the trade was confirmed to inform me he was going to send next week
I said I wished he had said that before confirming the trade
5 hours later he canceled the trade
3.5 hours after he canceled the trade I stated the site rule

elpablo wrote:

If you were depending on cards from Glass to make your other trades maybe you shouldn't trade with cards you don't have in the future.  Patience is a virtue they say. If you would have just waited to get the cards from glass before committing other trades then maybe you wouldn't be so butt-hurt right now.  He apologized for not being able to get them out in time.  He's obviously either never traded or not been on here very long and some understanding for the rules should be given.

"I had offers out to other traders and dropped all of those because that trade had been accepted." (Multiple trades for the VoR, but closed them because this trade moved forward)

I never said I was waiting for the cards from him to trade to someone else, I said I had other trades open for the Voice of Resurgence(s) and I closed all those "offers" because the trade with Giant_Glass_Box was going forward. VoR at the time of the trade were sitting @ $46.6, then after the canceled trade I had to start shopping other offers, but by then the VoR value had dropped to $45.8 so for the 2 cards I was losing $1.6 of value to the new offers.

elpablo wrote:

So in Glasses case, I think neutral feed back is appropriate, and wally should try to be more upfront and open with what he's going to do with the cards before he confirms _his_ address, especially with a new guy.

Giant_Glass_Box should have started before the trade was confirmed that he would need to wait a week to ship
I never had any other trades for cards I was to receive from Giant_Glass_Box
Giant_Glass_Box canceled a confirmed trade and then refused to negotiate a compensatory trade

Thanks for your input, this may help others to understand the facts, clearly there is some room for confusion.

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

Kizudarake wrote:

It looks like he was willing to trade, until you started making unreasonable(to him, not you) demands--you were pushing him to send out the cards on your schedule, not his. If you needed the cards immediately, then you should have specified that prior to confirming the trade. It's reasonable to assume that it might take someone a few days to dig out a few cards and get to a post office; the guy might have to ride a bus or two to get to a post office that he can ship his cards out of, or might need to get shipping materials.

If he needed to wait a week to send out cards he should have said so before confirming the trade. "Hey by the way I'm busy do you mind if I wait until next week to send the cards?"
I never demanded or pushed him to send the cards, " tomorrow or the next day ok, but I wish you would have said something about sending next week before confirming the trade" was referring to him telling me he was going to wait until next week to send. I was saying that if he needed to wait until tomorrow or the next day ok but next week I wish he had said something before. Thats it, no demands or pushing.

Kizudarake wrote:

Don't continue to be unreasonable over this.

What exactly is it thats unreasonable?
For me to expect people to send there side of a trade in a timely manner or at least inform the other party before hand?
For me to expect people to follow thru with trades that are confirmed (to the point that addresses are exchanged)?
For me to expect people to follow the rules of the site (even though I didn't make the rules or have any input in them)?
or is it that I don't want Giant_Glass_Box to pull these shenanigans on anyone else in the future without the warning that comes with negative feedback?

Thanks for your input, this may help others to understand the facts, clearly there is some room for confusion.

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

Kizudarake wrote:

You do realize that all you are actually doing with this crusade is making people feel like they don't want to trade with you, right? I consider it to be bullying behavior, and the digital equivalent of flipping a table after losing a game.

So you feel that someone that wants to stick to the rules is someone you would NOT want to trade with? right?
And you feel that I'm being a bully because I want Giant_Glass_Box to be held to the same rules the rest of us are? right?
"the digital equivalent..." right

I have 13 active trades 5 opened after all this started
I have 84 feedback 100% positive
I think I'm doing fine.

Some trades happen some don't, its all good and there will always be another opportunity to make a trade.
I'm just trying to make it safe for folks like you in case you decide to make your first trade someday.

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

I did try to have a compensatory trade with him he offered me a few .15 cards I countered with a .97 cent card he refused to negotiate further.

You did not :P

You demanded a marginally valued card to make up for perceived loss in value on the voices.  Losing 50 cents on a couple voices is completely irrelevant.  You're still going to trade them and the people that want them will trade down to get a couple voices.  You lost nothing by him canceling that trade and in fact you're hurting the whole community by trying to "teach" a new guy the rules.  This just isn't the way to go about this.

elpablo wrote:

You bashed him over the head with rules immediately.


He waited until after the trade was confirmed to inform me he was going to send next week
I said I wished he had said that before confirming the trade
5 hours later he canceled the trade
3.5 hours after he canceled the trade I stated the site rule

yes, that is all correct. It takes a while to communicate over deckbox.  Immediately doesn't refer to a "time" as much as it does "your very next response".  The facts aren't in dispute.  It's your interpretation of the rules and how they are being applied to this situation.

"I had offers out to other traders and dropped all of those because that trade had been accepted." (Multiple trades for the VoR, but closed them because this trade moved forward)

I never said I was waiting for the cards from him to trade to someone else, I said I had other trades open for the Voice of Resurgence(s) and I closed all those "offers" because the trade with Giant_Glass_Box was going forward. VoR at the time of the trade were sitting @ $46.6, then after the canceled trade I had to start shopping other offers, but by then the VoR value had dropped to $45.8 so for the 2 cards I was losing $1.6 of value to the new offers.

This does clear up your intentions there so that's understandable.  Even so it won't take you long to unload a couple voices.  In fact you've got one up right now with someone.

http://deckbox.org/trades/105919?s=17086

As i stated earlier your perceived loss in value for these highly demanded cards is irrelevant.  You will make this up easily. The compensatory trade if agreed to by both parties should be mutually beneficial if I understand the intention of the rules. And in fact is supposed to be in place for actual loss of product.  Not a loss in your "investment".  This is after all still a card game and not the stock market.

Giant_Glass_Box should have started before the trade was confirmed that he would need to wait a week to ship
I never had any other trades for cards I was to receive from Giant_Glass_Box
Giant_Glass_Box canceled a confirmed trade and then refused to negotiate a compensatory trade

You're absolutely right he should have and I bet he'll never forget to mention something like that again after this.  He's sure going to learn his lesson isn't he?  :rolleyes:

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

Wally_H wrote:
Kizudarake wrote:

You do realize that all you are actually doing with this crusade is making people feel like they don't want to trade with you, right? I consider it to be bullying behavior, and the digital equivalent of flipping a table after losing a game.

So you feel that someone that wants to stick to the rules is someone you would NOT want to trade with? right?
And you feel that I'm being a bully because I want Giant_Glass_Box to be held to the same rules the rest of us are? right?
"the digital equivalent..." right

I have 13 active trades 5 opened after all this started
I have 84 feedback 100% positive
I think I'm doing fine.

Some trades happen some don't, its all good and there will always be another opportunity to make a trade.
I'm just trying to make it safe for folks like you in case you decide to make your first trade someday.

I wouldn't feel safe trading with you, I know that, after this thread and the BTR. You're making every effort that you can to smear his name across the community. Not only was there 10 posts in the BTR thread by you, in the space of less than 30 hours, demanding that he get a negative feedback for 'costing' you $1.60, you created a separate thread to demand negative feedback in a different forum. I'd be afraid that anything at all would go wrong and you'd lose your temper.

The fact that you have had so many successful trades and so much positive feedback is exactly why it makes it look like you are bullying him and throwing an unreasonable fit. 84 positive feedback is quite an accomplishment, and it makes you appear to be fairly powerful and well-respected in the trading community. Therefore, when someone else sees the commotion that you are causing, they tend to assume that you are probably in the right. Meanwhile, Glass is just a nobody in the community, with no feedback at all. He's basically an outsider, dipping his toes in the water for the first time. From his perspective, I doubt he'll ever want to trade again, if this is the kind of treatment he's going to receive.

I think, and at least one mod thinks as well, that neutral feedback is what is appropriate for this current situation. Neutral feedback, Glass added to your Do Not Trade list, and an extra note in your profile that, unless arrangements are made prior to confirming addresses, you expect all cards to be sent out either by the next day, or two days hence. Glass will go his way, having learned an appropriate lesson, and you, Wally_h, will go your way as well, richer by one positive feedback.

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

Playing by the rules is good, they're there to protect us and our property.  We need them.

But this is just like a teir one player with a teir 1 deck sitting down from a new guy at the card shop with a precon deck and nailing him on every rule because you can.  Is he technically correct in doing so? Yes... is he kind of a douche for doing it?  yeah... he is.

It's our responsibility to the community and other players as human beings to be understanding and forgiving where applicable.  This is really one of those times.

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

The rules are open to interpretation by the administrators. If they were set in stone and interpreted literally people would find ways to "game the system" and abuse it in different ways. We don't want that.

Secondly, my personal feeling is that negative feedback is a dangerous tool. If people leave it too easy, it encourages more discussion, the party receiving it will want to contest it or leave retaliatory negative feedback, and so forth, generally pushing things into negativity, fighting and endless defensive arguing.

We would rather prefer to encourage people to discuss things in friendly ways in private, and agree on solutions to tricky situations (like in this case, a possible delayed shipping). Trying to propose another trade in a friendly way is the solution to that, not instant negative feedback.

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

And I'd be especially friendlier to people who are at their first few trades on deckbox. We were all beginners once...

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

Stuff happens, if nobody is out anything tangible I definitely don't think negative feedback is warranted.  GGB definitely should have made clear up front his shipping delay, though.

Personally, I know we've done some trades wally so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  If we had never traded before though there is no way I would consider doing a trade with someone that immediately starts lawyering and demanding that I send them cards, regardless of what the site rules say.

Profile

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

Quite frankly, there are a lot of sites that I can use to trade cards. If this is how a "respected" member of the community conducts themselves then I really see no reason to continue to use it for that purpose.  I certainly appreciate the objective opinions given regarding this situation. I honestly see no reason for this person to have lost their mind about it.  I regret being somewhat snarky with my replies, but that is how I react when I feel like someone is trying to "game" me or to take advantage of me. And, let's be honest, that is exactly what you were attempting.  The fact that it was 'Only a $0.97 card' has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. 

I definitely agree with Sebi that it behooves all of us to be nice to people who are new to the community. Magic players are a subset of a subset of a subset of people and we can use all of the friends that we can get because, lord knows, the rest of the world sure doesn't understand.

That being said, Wally_H, you're going to do what you feel is right. Just stop acting like a jerk about it.

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

Giant_Glass_Box wrote:

Quite frankly, there are a lot of sites that I can use to trade cards. If this is how a "respected" member of the community conducts themselves then I really see no reason to continue to use it for that purpose.  I certainly appreciate the objective opinions given regarding this situation. I honestly see no reason for this person to have lost their mind about it.  I regret being somewhat snarky with my replies, but that is how I react when I feel like someone is trying to "game" me or to take advantage of me. And, let's be honest, that is exactly what you were attempting.  The fact that it was 'Only a $0.97 card' has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. 

I definitely agree with Sebi that it behooves all of us to be nice to people who are new to the community. Magic players are a subset of a subset of a subset of people and we can use all of the friends that we can get because, lord knows, the rest of the world sure doesn't understand.

That being said, Wally_H, you're going to do what you feel is right. Just stop acting like a jerk about it.

It isn't.  Most people on here think that while it wasn't cool of you to back out, that his absolute insistence of giving you a negative is making him the douche.  What most people here probaly think you should do is offer to trade with him. If he wants your gaze, you find something of his you want. After all, he has stated right here he doesn't want something for nothing.  Unless of course Wally is confusing the phrase "compensatory trade" with "they have to give me stuff for free"

If that is what he expects you to do, nobody is on his side. Honest. I think if I had been on the other end of the trade with you, and I was a black cat card collector, I'd have said ok.  I might have left you a neutral, but this pushing for a negative thing he is shooting himself in the foot.

You can add me to the list of people who really wouldn't want to trade with a guy like that after seeing his forum tempter tantrum.

Profile|Tradelist|Wishlist

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

jassi007 wrote:
Giant_Glass_Box wrote:

Quite frankly, there are a lot of sites that I can use to trade cards. If this is how a "respected" member of the community conducts themselves then I really see no reason to continue to use it for that purpose.  I certainly appreciate the objective opinions given regarding this situation. I honestly see no reason for this person to have lost their mind about it.  I regret being somewhat snarky with my replies, but that is how I react when I feel like someone is trying to "game" me or to take advantage of me. And, let's be honest, that is exactly what you were attempting.  The fact that it was 'Only a $0.97 card' has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. 

I definitely agree with Sebi that it behooves all of us to be nice to people who are new to the community. Magic players are a subset of a subset of a subset of people and we can use all of the friends that we can get because, lord knows, the rest of the world sure doesn't understand.

That being said, Wally_H, you're going to do what you feel is right. Just stop acting like a jerk about it.

It isn't.  Most people on here think that while it wasn't cool of you to back out, that his absolute insistence of giving you a negative is making him the douche.  What most people here probaly think you should do is offer to trade with him. If he wants your gaze, you find something of his you want. After all, he has stated right here he doesn't want something for nothing.  Unless of course Wally is confusing the phrase "compensatory trade" with "they have to give me stuff for free"

If that is what he expects you to do, nobody is on his side. Honest. I think if I had been on the other end of the trade with you, and I was a black cat card collector, I'd have said ok.  I might have left you a neutral, but this pushing for a negative thing he is shooting himself in the foot.

You can add me to the list of people who really wouldn't want to trade with a guy like that after seeing his forum tempter tantrum.

I'd trade with G_G_B all day long, based on what I've seen. He's cool, calm, and collected, and when the trade didn't work out, he left a positive feedback. That's the kind of guy I like.

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

Nighthawk wrote:

Stuff happens, if nobody is out anything tangible I definitely don't think negative feedback is warranted.  GGB definitely should have made clear up front his shipping delay, though.

Personally, I know we've done some trades wally so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  If we had never traded before though there is no way I would consider doing a trade with someone that immediately starts lawyering and demanding that I send them cards, regardless of what the site rules say.

Nighthawk is a great example of what I was talking about, he needed to wait to ship and said so before we confirmed the trade

Nighthawk    /works for me, next time I can ship is 7/12    05 Jul
Wally_H    no problem, in no hurry    05 Jul

Giant_Glass_Box already dropped 1 trade while we were negotiating this was the second attempt to work something out with him, but I never demanded that anyone send me cards, as part of the compensatory trade negotiations (trade attempt 3) I asked if he had ideas, he said black cats, I said gaze of granite... he walked away.

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: 2.1 After the trade is accepted, there is no backing out.

As a complete noob here, I'd certainly be more likely to trade with G_G_B than W_H based solely on the evidence in this thread.