Topic: New gates

I need some help with my favorite deck, ever. Some of my deck is getting ready to go out of standard, so I'd like some help updating it for standard, and improving it for modern use. Preferably, your suggestions will only involve cards I already have, but I can buy a few new ones.

New Gates - my idea for this one was 4 color, BRWG, extremely budget(TCG minimum price of 16.31, average price of 44.38), and topping out at 3cmc. Avacyn's pilgrims, Zhur-taa Druids and Burning-tree Emissaries let me ramp and provide blockers, while the Druids also add a little extra ping to mana requirements, Gatecreeper Vines ensure extra blockers while letting me make my land drops, Lingering Souls let me bring out extra flying blockers that can band together to take down many flyers, Hold The Gates lets me pump my dudes up so they can take all but the hardest hits while still letting me make minor flying raids against opponents without flyers or reach without turning my blockers sideways, Gateway Shades pump up for occasional hard hits, and Crackling Perimeters let me ensure that my extra guildgates don't go to waste after my hand empties, as well as letting me keep planeswalkers my opponents control from going ultimate, if I don't have a dreadbore at hand. This is my favorite deck to run, as I still have plenty of stuff to do, even when I'm topdecking. I know it's not a Tier 1 deck, although it does better against decks running shock lands than most people would expect. http://deckbox.org/sets/354867

Re: New gates

I'm not going to lie, four color is definitely out of my comfort zone, but it almost seems silly not to be taking advantage of the gatekeepers from DGM (especially Saruli Gatekeepers) and Greenside Watcher.  To be honest, I'm not entirely sure Hold the Gates is as effective as Sphere of Safety or something like that.  You could easily toss in Detention Sphere, Pacifism and things of that like to up your enchantment count.  Or maybe you could do more of a control build with it.

All that being said, I know a potential finisher would be to toss in Prophet of Kruphix to maximize your ability to burn them out with Crackling Perimeter.  I could also see where Maze's End should be in here to let you tutor up the gates needed to play what's in your hand.

Am I correct that the real win-con is to smash them with Gateway Shade?  It certainly is different...

As you can tell I'm pretty much just spitballing here... let me know if any of that helps.

Re: New gates

Greenside watcher looks really good, and it is cheap enough(CMC) to fit in the deck. It would help me, also, to fire off crackling perimeter for extra damage in later turns.

I prefer Hold The Gates to sphere of Safety, as the deck runs primarily gates, and Hold The Gates ramps my creatures' toughness up potentially two turns sooner. It also stacks, so that if I get two or three out by turn 8, which usually happens, all my creatures turn into attacking walls. If I run Sphere, I have to throw in more cancellable enchantments, which I might not draw. Also, with HTG, I don't have to worry about my dudes being sideways during my opponents' turn. I also like that I don't have to worry about enchantments getting blocked as much, as it's a lot harder to keep me from playing lands or to destroy them in standard.

My win conditions are a combination of factors. Crackling Perimeters to chip away at my opponents' health, using guild gates, my opponents being unlikely to have enough dudes to stop a flock of spirit tokens from chipping away at them, Zhur-taa Druid zapping them lower, each turn, and, if they don't have flyers, pumping Gateway Shade as a blocker to knock out giant creatures.

I might can fit a maze's end in somewhere, but what would I eliminate?

Re: New gates

Winning with gates is going to be slow no matter what the win condition is.  I would honestly drop Hold the gates and the shade for a more control type build.  You need to be able to tempo your opponent so your win condition can come online. Whatever that may be.

Re: New gates

I'm not worried about the slowness of the deck. I really don't mind it being durdly, as it is never boring to play. With standard changing, though, I'm losing Lingering Souls and Avacyn's Pilgrim in the main deck, and a tragic slip and my o-rings in the sideboard.

I'm mostly looking to replace what's going out with cards that are still sticking around, as Hold the Gates and Gateway Shade are part of the primary engine.

Working off a sample hand of
Name                      Cost
Forest
Gruul Guildgate
Selesnya Guildgate
Boros Guildgate
Dreadbore.                   BR
Crackling Perimeter.      1R
Lingering Souls.            2W

Then my goldfish play, if i'm on the play, would be

T1 - gruul Guildgate
T2 - draw Lingering Souls -> Boros Guildgate
T3 - draw BTE -> play Forest -> BTE -> lingering souls
T4 - draw Orzhov Guildgate -> play Orzhov Guildgate -> lingering souls -> swing 2 spirits. (Opponent @ 18 life)
T5 - draw Rakdos Guildgate -> play Rakdos Guildgate -> flashback lingering souls -> Crackling Perimeter -> swing 4 spirits ( opp @ 14 life)
T6 - draw Z-T Druid -> play Selesnya Guildgate -> flashback lingering souls -> Z-T Druid ->swing 6 spirits (Opponent @ 8 life)
T7 - draw centaur healer -> tap Z-T D -> cast centaur healer -> tap 4 GGs for CP -> swing 8 spirits (Lethal)

Re: New gates

You're talking about a turn 7 lethal if your opponent does nothing?  Scavenging ooze can eat your souls before you get to recast them, any board wipe just stops you dead.  And there are more than a few ways to deal with cackling perimeter. RG aggro just goes over the top with trample/thundermaw and you couldn't stop the damage. 

Maze's end has been a fringe strategy and it could still be playable, with gates with the right support. You'd still need some powerhouse cards to make it work.

Sphinx's rev
supreme verdict
Jace, AOT
Ætherling
The new sphinx that gives extra turns
gate keepers
gate creepers
fogs
counters

I just don't see how that wins right now as is.  I'm not saying it's not fun, but all the "improvements" I can think of take you away from your strategy.    I'm guessing you don't see many Tier 1 decks? or even tier 2 decks?  But hey if it works for you keep it up. *shrug*

Re: New gates

Here's the full decklist, as it stands so far.

2 Boros Guildgate
4 Forest
4 Golgari Guildgate
3 Gruul Guildgate
4 Orzhov Guildgate
4 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate

2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Crackling Perimeter
2 Dreadbore
4 Gatecreeper Vine
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Ultimate Price
2 Zhur-Taa Druid
3 Centaur Healer
4 Gateway Shade
4 Hold the Gates
4 Lingering Souls

#60
Sideboard:

3 Pillar of Flame
1 Tragic Slip
1 Blind Obedience
2 Boros Charm
2 Dreadbore
2 Selesnya Charm
1 Centaur Healer
3 Oblivion Ring

#15

Re: New gates

And sorry, I don't mean to criticize your 60 or sound like a jerk, but it'd be nice to hear what kind of decks you actually do face and what gives you trouble.  You cant just plan for rotation without planning for what kind of stuff you'll be facing.

Re: New gates

What does burning tree emissary get you?  Sure you can play a gatecreeper or crackling perimeter off it, but you're not exactly pushing damage through early, and paying 2 for an extra chump block seems pointless when you could pay 2 for doomblade or something similar and just remove a creature.

Re: New gates

It is another t2 block, but it's also mana fixing, as well. If I don't have any red sources, or it's turn 3 and I have a Zhur-taa Druid, a forest and a red-producing Guildgate out, I can tap the Zhur-taa Druid (dealing 1 damage) and the forest, throw GG into bringing out the BTE and get back GR for a crackling perimeter, and still have a Guildgate I can tap for a point of damage. If I had to tap the red producing Guildgate, I couldn't zap my opponent or his Planeswalker from the CP.

Re: New gates

um, lets be clear, BTE is not manafixing, it may work out that way for you "occasionally", but relying on it is like praying for rain in the desert.  Manafixing comes in the form of fetching your lands with things like, maze's end, gatecreeper, farseak.  Some cards like the new Sylvan Caryatid or Manaswift Sliver, can fix mana a little too and ramp some.

IMO, BTE can be cut easily and replaced with something more reliable.

Re: New gates

I'll start with the mana, because it's pretty obviously the core of the deck.

Four colors is rough no matter what you do, but I'd throw a set of Darksteel Ingots in just for generic mana-fixing. Considering all your important gates enter tapped, I'd say you should replace at least some of those gates with Vivid lands, too. Say Vivid Grove. They enter tapped, too, but they can give you any color mana twice. Obviously, it trades late-game functionality for mana when you need it, but you will have the mana you need when you need it.

Other things? I really don't see much card-synergy in this deck aside from a few gate sorceries, and certainly not that warrants the trouble of FOUR colors. Right now you have all four colors in both the deck and the side-board. I know what I'd do: sideboard one color at any given time.

As green and white appear to be this deck's primary colors, roll with that. Set up two sideboards: one black and multicolored, one red and multicolored, and any one game you play one of those colors sits out. You'll still be running three colors, so there's plenty of space for gates, you can fit some basic lands in to give your deck an early mana boost, and the whole deck will just deploy more smoothly if it just has to worry about three colors.

Re: New gates

I'll start with the mana, because it's pretty obviously the core of the deck.

Four colors is rough no matter what you do, but I'd throw a set of Darksteel Ingots in just for generic mana-fixing. Considering all your important gates enter tapped, I'd say you should replace at least some of those gates with Vivid lands, too. Say Vivid Grove. They enter tapped, too, but they can give you any color mana twice. Obviously, it trades late-game functionality for mana when you need it, but you will have the mana you need when you need it.

He was talking about staying standard for rotation I believe.  And why dark steal ingot over Chromatic lantern?

Other things? I really don't see much card-synergy in this deck aside from a few gate sorceries, and certainly not that warrants the trouble of FOUR colors. Right now you have all four colors in both the deck and the side-board. I know what I'd do: sideboard one color at any given time.

As green and white appear to be this deck's primary colors, roll with that. Set up two sideboards: one black and multicolored, one red and multicolored, and any one game you play one of those colors sits out. You'll still be running three colors, so there's plenty of space for gates, you can fit some basic lands in to give your deck an early mana boost, and the whole deck will just deploy more smoothly if it just has to worry about three colors.

If he's going to cut colors he might as well play a different deck.  The gate strategy only works if you plan for it heavily, with things like Saurli Gatekeepers, Gatecreeper vines, and maze's end.  If he decides to cut colors and get away from the gates, there are tons of better decks we could suggest.  The primary colors of the deck should be GWU, for more control/tempo options.

Also, Transformitive sidebaords like you're talking about only work in very specific meta based strategies.  I wouldn't recommend it for general deck building..

There's nothing wrong with his strategy, it's the execution that needs work.  Gates can work, i've seen them work, it's fringe, but doable.  He just needs the power house cards to help back them up.

Re: New gates

Also, part of the fun of this deck is that it's incredibly cheap, money wise. None of the cards except the dreadbores are over 2.50, TCG mid price. If you run the deck using cards that are beat to shit, TCG low, you're only paying out the cost of a starter deck, tax, and a spin down counter. Keeping that in mind, the deck regularly causes game 2 to go over time, due to the occasional difficulty with drawing a crackling perimeter.

That being said, I can't justify running vivid lands in the deck. Against green-strong players, I need every single +0/+1 I can get. I'm really looking for replacement cards for things that are rotating. For example, I can replace my pillars in the sideboard with Mizzium mortars, as it is like a double pillar with overload that can wipe most planeswalkers with one strike. I can replace Avacyn's pilgrim with elvish mystics and replace two forests with plains. What I really need is a functional replacement for Lingering Souls- something that will give me some cheap flyers.

Re: New gates

Mizzium mortars doesn't hit planeswalkers FYI.

Vivid lands are not standard legal.  If you included them it'd have to be a modern deck.

Re: New gates

elpablo wrote:

Mizzium mortars doesn't hit planeswalkers FYI

Well, crap.

Re: New gates

Just to clarify. 

Planes walkers only get removed in a few different ways. 

1.  Combat damage, creatures can attack a planes walker, if this results in loyalty counters going to 0 they are removed
2. Direct damage, a spell that deals damage (not life loss) can be redirected to a planeswalker from the targeted player, same result as combat damage
3. Specific Destroy planes walker spells remove them
4. Destroy target permanent or exile target permanent, destroy all permanents, planes walkers are permanents while they're on the battlefield.
5. using their minus "-3" ability, if this leaves them with 0 counters they are removed from play.

It's just important to remember they have their own card type and have special rules.

Re: New gates

Yeah, I just misread the card.

Re: New gates

Now something like Boros Charm CAN zap a PW... food for thought.