Topic: hive mind questions... Please help!

Ok so before i go all out and build a deck with hive mind, I have a few questions about it. I plan on going the route of using the pacts to win, but what happens when in a multi player game and i use Pact of Negation? With hivemind out, i know they each get one, but if they counter each others, does it just fizzle or do all of them have to pay? Same i guess with Slaughter Pact, If everyone targets the same creature, do they still have to pay for it? I have thought about this a little thinking about the stack, but it is a cost to play effect so i was thinking that it shouldnt matter. Lastly, besides the pacts, is there anything else that can become a win condition with hive mind? I know i am going overboard with 4 of each atm, but i cant decide on what way to go at the moment. I am starting with Stasis because i have always loved the lockdown of it.
My deck can be found here:
http://deckbox.org/sets/551269

Thanks for the help!

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Re: hive mind questions... Please help!

I've had a similar deck/win-condition idea before, understanding the stack and what is required to have a spell resolve is very critical to making this work.  It just gets more convoluted when you add in multiple players. 

For starters let's look at all the pacts: Pact of Negation, Slaughter Pact, Intervention Pact, Pact of the Titan, and Summoner's Pact. 

Pact of Negation and Slaughter Pact can't be cast without a valid target.  So a spell needs to be on the stack for you to even cast Pact of Negation and a non-black creature needs to be on the battlefield for Slaughter Pact to be cast. 

Intervention Pact also requires a target but you can choose a land on the battlefield if you wanted to. 

Summoner's Pact still works even if they don't have a green creature in their library.

Pact of the Titan works under any condition. 

All of the copies of the pacts under your opponents control must resolve in order to create your win condition.  If their spells fizzle because they no longer have a target or have been themselves countered then they will not have to pay because the spell never resolved.

Also you DO NOT want to play Eon Hub as it will cause them to skip the upkeep step and the pay mana or lose the game effect will never trigger. 

Let's run through the simplest way this strategy wins in 1v1 one time before tackling a multiplayer scenario:

Your opponent only has Black Mana available.  On your turn 6 you play a 6th Island, tap all 6 and play Hive Mind, your opponent has no response, Hive Mind resolves and is put onto the battlefield you have priority. 

You then play Pact of the Titan, it goes on the stack. 

Hive Mind triggers and it's ability goes on the stack, both players pass priority.

Hive Mind's ability resolves, creating a copy of Pact of the Titan on the stack under your opponent's control, both players pass priority.

His copy of Pact of the Titan resolves.  He puts a 4/4 Red Giant token on the field under his control, then both of you pass priority.

Your original Pact of the Titan you cast resolves.  You put a 4/4 Red Giant token on the field under your control. 

You start combat, declare no attackers, end combat, end second main phase, and then pass turn. 

Your opponent untaps, then at the beginning of his upkeep step Pact of the Titan's trigger occurs, requiring him to pay 4{R} or lose the game.  He is unable to generate the {R} and therefore loses the game and maybe loses his cool and desire to play with you anymore.

I'll run through your specific Pact of Negation multi-player question in my next post.

Re: hive mind questions... Please help!

Alright now for the multiplayer scenario.  First off I'm going to add something like Memnite to your deck. 

Let's say you are playing a 5 man game and each of you is playing a different mono-color (to keep this simple).  We'll call all 5 players Blue (you), Red, Green, Black, and White.  Obviously the only pact that will win with your Hive Mind trickery is the Pact of Negation as if any one player is able to meet the requirements of the beginning of the upkeep trigger they will not lose and you probably will at the beginning of your upkeep.  Obviously you've got some other cards in your deck that gives you some alternatives by not letting them untap so even if they have 3 or more plains in play, they may not be able to pay the upkeep trigger of Intervention Pact. 

But we're going to keep this simple.  It's your turn 6 again and you were the first player, we'll assume everyone else has 5 basic lands in play that correspond to their color.  The player to your right is playing white and during his second main he tapped 4 of his Plains and a Sol Ring to cast Planar Cleansing and nothing on the board had indestructible.  So at the beginning of your turn only land is on the board.

Your turn: Untap, Upkeep, Draw, you draw your 6th Island and have Memnite, Hive Mind, and Pact of Negation in already in your hand.  In this scenario, assuming the other players work together to ensure you don't get a clean win, you will probably not win, and only one of them (the white player) will lose assuming nobody has any useful instant speed interaction.  You also probably will not lose, but if anyone has a counterspell that can target blue, and if combined they can destroy 2 of your lands... before your next turn you will be the only one that loses. 

I'll break down how only the white player to your right loses.

First Main you do nothing, skip combat, Second Main:

Play your Island,
Cast Hive Mind, it resolves and comes into play.
Cast Memnite, cast Pact of Negation targeting Memnite on the stack,

Hive Mind triggers and it's ability goes on the stack, all players pass priority.

Hive Mind's ability resolves and starts creating copies of Pact of Negation starting with the active player unless he/she is the one who cast the original spell to be copied (which is the case here) then it goes in play order from the active player (usually to the left) we'll use the order I listed the players above.

A copy of Pact of Negation is created on the stack under Red's control targeting Memnite, as it is created Red can choose a new target for the copy, his only option to switch to is your original Pact of Negation at this time.  In his/her situation it doesn't really matter so he leaves it as is. 

So from top to bottom our stack now looks like:

Red's copy of Pact of Negation targeting Memnite
Your original Pact of Negation targeting Memnite
Your Memnite

Now Green get's a copy of Pact of Negation on the stack.  He can change the target but he thinks about it for a second.  If he doesn't, he'll counter Memnite before Red's copy does, making Red's copy fizzle, making Red safe from paying the upkeep trigger.  So he leaves the target the same.

So from top to bottom our stack now looks like:

Green's copy of Pact of Negation targeting Memnite
Red's copy of Pact of Negation targeting Memnite
Your original Pact of Negation targeting Memnite
Your Memnite

Black and White see what is happening and White realizes he is screwed in this deal simply by sitting to your right they follow suit.

At the end the stack looks like this:

White's copy of Pact of Negation targeting Memnite
Black's copy of Pact of Negation targeting Memnite
Green's copy of Pact of Negation targeting Memnite
Red's copy of Pact of Negation targeting Memnite
Your original Pact of Negation targeting Memnite
Your Memnite

As long as nobody casts anything else White's copy resolves, Memnite is countered and all other copies and your original fizzle.  Only White loses at the beginning of his turn. 

You pass turn.  Red casts Lava Axe everyone gets a copy and points it at your face.  You're copy of Lava Axe will resolve first letting you deal 5 damage to one of them, if that's not enough to kill one of them, you are going to take 20 damage and lose before White does.

Re: hive mind questions... Please help!

As you can see Pact of Negation is probably the worst of the pacts to win with this strategy in multiplayer.  Slaughter Pact is probably equally bad because everyone could just keep the target on the same creature.

The best bet is to wait until you have Intervention Pact, Pact of the Titan, and Summoner's Pact in hand before casting Hive Mind as it is very unlikely that even if someone had all three of those colors that they would be able to pay the whole 12 CMC during their upkeep. 

You also might want to make sure that most everyone is tapped out so that you don't get burned by some instant speed spell copied multiple times.  If two Lightning Bolts get cast in a 5 man it's probably going to be 24 damage to you making you lose first.

Re: hive mind questions... Please help!

Thank you very much! That input helped A LOT!

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