Topic: [Standard] White Weenie, splash Red

Hello all! I just recently posted my Mono-Red Deck to the board for tips on improving its now failing win rate, and due to good reasoning I've decided to shelve the deck until it gets a major bomb or I get enough shocklands to add something else in there.

However, in that case, I would appreciate some feedback on the deck I want to replace it with.

http://deckbox.org/sets/605752

Tapped Out is down at the time of writing, so the list may be slightly off but I'm 99% that's correct.

Anyways, I had notes to the deck with some choices made, as some may well be odd, so let me recite them here. I'm 99% sure the base white creatures and spears are standard, so let me talk about why I added red.

What's The Red Splashed For?

I find that right now, regardless of which way you look at it, standard is dominated by two deck types specifically that account for a lot of wins; whether or not its due to popularity (domino effect) or its actual effectiveness I'm unsure, but regardless, you have to watch out for Mono-Black Devotion and UW Control.

The three mountains and Chained to the Rocks are probably the choices that I will be given the most criticism for, however I find that the removal from Banisher Priest just often isn't enough with all the removal in the format. Occasionally my curve might be slightly skewed because I drew a mountain or the Shrine instead of a plains, but often times these decks run Mutavault anyways so in theory I should be fine. I suppose in that sense this is a more "Midranged Leaning" White Weenie deck.

With the annoyance that comes with Pack Rat, Nightveil Spector and Desecration Demon, I find removal to be more necessary than before. Along with that, despite the abundance of enchantments in the block, it seems that Disenchant clones are rarely sideboarded, at least at my LGS.

As for the other cards, Boros Charm should be self explanatory; easily one of, if not the, most useful of the charms due to its utitlity, it by itself might be worth splashing the red in. Mostly it's there for the control matchup (invincibility is very nice against board wipes, and even against my Spears or CTTR's if they actually have the removal), but four damage to the face or a double striking Precinct Captain is nothing to laugh at.

Aurelia's Fury is probably the oddball, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a great one-of utility tool for disrupting control decks or stopping aggro. Baiting out counterspells for three mana to stop a Verdict or tapping an aggro deck down is great, no matter what deck you're playing. Straight damage isn't the worst thing in the world either. This is also partly the reason why there's a Shrine in here, as I can generate an extra mana or two to get more damage in, of course the Shrine itself is useful in a mostly white deck anyways.

As for the Sideboard

Chained to the Rocks and Boros Charm - Fairly obvious. If I need removal, I bring in the Rocks. If they have lots of board wipes, more Charms come in.

Glare of Heresey - This is just great against control matchups, no way around it. Exiling Elspeth and Detention Spheres can only mean board advantage on my side. Against mirror match ups it's not bad either.

Renounce the Guilds - This card is normally looked down upon for being generally garbage, but the utility of it in standard right now is amazing. Detention Sphere's? Not anymore. Nightveil Spector? Nope. Boros Reckoner? Voice? Domri? Xenagos? Blood Baron? There are so many good things for this and very few decks that don't run multi-colored cards that are threats. The best part is that I will rarely have to sack anything to it (that poor Dryad Militant) meaning I lose practically nothing to it and they could lose their big winning card.

Revoke Existence - I've been kicking around this and Wear//Tear for enchantment and artifact removal. Mostly I chose this because there seems to be zero good artifacts in standard right now, so the shatter effect on Wear//Tear is useful. Along with that, you can't get rid of gods with Tear, but you can with this card. Sorcery speed hurts it, though.

Spirit of the Labyrinth - Not an automatic GG to Control Decks, but damn is it a fine card! Ruining Sphinx's Rev's is just great, and if they have to use their removal on her instead of my Captain or someone else, well, who am I to complain? Less mana for them is just good for me.

Fiendslayer Paladin - I'm not sure if this is really a three of in the SB, but it's a good card anyways for Mono-Black and RDW or R/G aggro. While certainly not a complete halt, the lifelink and pro-removal (for the most part) can certainly slow them down. I might take one out for a Pithing Needle or something. Also decent against Esper control.

What I took out (from the sideboard):

Frontline Medic - Unfortunately these guys may never see play. I originally thought that their Control Hosing Sacrifice and Invincibility would be a good bane to control decks, the release of Spirit of the Labyrinth, Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow just prove to much for them. Poor guys, I hope my playset will see play again at one point.

Assemble the Legion - I originally had this in for a timer against control decks but took it out due to room. Spirit of the Labyrinth and the aggro I have should prove enough, correct?

What didn't make it in/unsure decisions

Boros Reckoner - I've been told many times by my friends to put him in but I don't see the point. Why have what would essentially be a three damage attacker when I can instead remove their big creatures? I know he's good but in a Weenie deck I just don't see it.

Brimaz - I assume I will get the most hate for not having this guy in. To be quite frank I'm not sure if he's worth it in any deck that splashes color outside of white. Maybe remove a Priest and a CTTR for two of him? He just doesn't seem like a four of in anything other than Mono-White at the very least.

Ajani, Caller of the Pride - I'm kicking around replacing the Spears with him, but I'm afraid of Hero's Downfall and the fact that the buff only applies to one creature at a time. He's good, but once again I think he's best for mono-white weenies.

I guess that's all. Feedback would most certainly be appreciated!

Last edited by TheWaddleDeeKing (2014-02-12 18:21:28)

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Re: [Standard] White Weenie, splash Red

So a few things to consider:

1) Assemble should DEFINITELY be in the SB in some quantity.  The card can single-handedly beat Mono-black (Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight weaken it, but you get all those soldiers right back the next turn).  Personally I would drop Renounce the Guilds from the SB as you already have 4 answers to D-sphere in Glare of Heresy and Revoke Existence.  I would also reduce the count of Spirit and Fiendslayer by 1x each, creating 4 SB slots.  I'd put in 2x Assemble and perhaps 1x Gideon (he actually does more than you think in terms of occupying the opponent) and 1x Angel of Serenity (or 2x if you just don't like Gideon)  Elspeth could also go in the board.

2) I would argue that you can lower the count of Mountain to 2x, which, when combined with the foundries gives you a total of 6 to serve as targets for Chained.  But on that point, if you're running Chained, why even run Banisher Priest at all?  I would run the full slate of Chained and likely drop most, if not all, of the priests.  Here's why, Priest has a body, but you're not as likely to attack with him as you think as it's easy for the opponent to block/kill him to get their creature back.  In fact, in decks with suitable removal, Banisher Priest can actually work in their favor, as you tap out to drop him, attack, and they kill him in response, giving them their blocker back and letting them block favorably - totally skipping demon triggers and the like.  Chained, well, outside of B/G you aren't likely going to run into many instant speed responses that could do this.

3) Aurelia's Fury as a 1x will either never be drawn or never do what you're wanting... you'll end up siding it out all the time and, to be honest, you could use that spot more efficiently.

4) Brimaz... yeah, you're going to catch flak for not running him here as this is a mono-white devotion aggro deck and he is literally PURRFECT (sorry, I had to) for this situation.  At 3 he fits the top end of your curve, he's a 3/4 vigilance that makes 1/1 vigilance... you're paying one less mana for a smaller creature that makes vanilla 1/1s... but that's an auto-include 4x while Brimaz isn't even in the list?  Consider life with a Spear of Heliod out... now you have a 4/5 that craps out 2/2s regardless of whether he hits or not?  I mean c'mon... this is value-town.

Realistically I don't think you're too far off from something, but I fear you might get nailed by the sheer quantity of sweepers that are out there these days... it's worth a shot though.

Re: [Standard] White Weenie, splash Red

Curios to know what I should drop if I want a full playset of Rocks and Brimaz in the deck. Obviously if I got rid of all the Banisher Priests that would leave me with two Chained to the Rocks and two Brimaz, but past that I'm not sure. Aurelia's Fury is one I could see, but the only other one would be Boros Charm, and it's hard to drop that kind of utility.

Also could you explain matchups in with Gideon and Angel would be useful? I mean, Angel is great and all but with all the removal and its high mana cost it seems kind of odd. Gideon is a pseudo counter to control, I guess, but in that case then it just seems that Assemble the Legion would be miles better (which I will likely add in, probably 2x)

Actually I suppose dropping a Boros Elite or two would work too. Rarely in my RDW (with only 8x one drops) did I ever have a hand without a turn one creature. He's pretty bad without Mutavault anyways...

Last edited by TheWaddleDeeKing (2014-02-15 18:21:39)

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Re: [Standard] White Weenie, splash Red

So for what to drop, if it were me I'd likely do the following:

-2 Dryad Militant
-1 Imposing Sovereign
-2 Banisher Priest
-1 Aurelia's Fury

+2 Chained to the Rocks
+1 Spear of Heliod
+3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos

My rationale is as follows:

Dryad is easily the weakest of your one-drops.  Boros Elite will very frequently be a 3/3 going into combat which means it's already outperforming Dryad.  Similarly, Soldier of the Pantheon can gain life, deals with BTE, and can even stay put to block bigger stuff like Obzedat.  As such, losing two Dryads will sill leave you with 10 one-drops, but you've cut a few of the weakest link.

Imposing Sovereign is a solid card when you're just trying to outrun the opponent; but in reality it's easy to kill, becomes a quick target, and you'd likely rather be dropping either two one-drops, a one-drop and Chained, Precinct Captain or Daring Skyjek on T2.  So, as such, going down to 2x Sovereign will still let you draw it on a regular basis, but won't always stick you with one when you don't want it.

Banisher Priest is a double-edged sword - he can be your best friend OR it can really just underperform and you've dropped three mana into a creature that did nothing.  You're going up to 4x Chained, so really, you're not losing any removal power here by dropping down to 2x.

Adding another Spear will help ensure you get it.  It might seem like it's not adding that much firepower, but T1-Soldier, T2-Precinct Captain, T3-Spear is one hell of a start and the pump works with the tokens created by both Captain and Brimaz, making an army of 1/1s (normally not a big deal) into an army of 2/2s (which has been known to kill people quite often - see Mutavault if you think a 2/2 isn't valuable).  Sure, drawing a second one sucks, but then you have a backup as people will start packing more enchantment hate as Theros and BNG become the core cards in standard.

Brimaz, well, he's the cat king.  By having a 4th toughness he survives Bile Blight, Lightning Strike, Anger of the Gods, and, well, a LOT of the removal out there.  That in mind, he's a major threat that survives a lot and just oozes value.

You likely want to keep Boros Charm for the utility it provides against sweepers and even the straight burn it can offer to finish off an opponent with a low life total.

As far as Gideon and Angel are concerned, well, they are VERY useful SB cards.  Against R/G builds - which are a clear tier 1 deck now thanks to Xenagos, God of Revels.  You drop Gideon on T4 and he's an immediate distraction, forcing them to attack him and not you - often times buying enough turns for you to stabilize or otherwise assemble a winning alpha strike.  His +1 ability not only makes it take forever for them to kill him, but it also makes him an ever-increasing threat.  He could side in against R/G (as they like to flood the board) OR control to quite a bit of success.  Angel fits much of the same bill in terms of her impact.  Yes, she dies to quick removal just like everything else, but if they've been sitting there trying to take out all your little guys to keep ahead of the curve, well, she comes in and they're likely out of removal by that point.  Alternately, she could let you get 3 guys from your yard back to your hand... "Why yes I'll happily get those two copies of Brimaz and a Banisher Priest back."  Toss in the fact that outside of Stormbreath Dragon she literally outclasses ANY threat on the board and, well, that's the making of a solid SB card.  Obviously you leave her out against decks like MBD, but she's solid against R/G, mono-blue, things of that nature.  AND, even better, with Nykthos in the deck you'd be surprised how easy it is to get to 7 white care of things like Chained, Precinct Captain, Spear, and Brimaz. 

Again, they're likely SB cards, but they let you turn what is a pretty vanilla aggro deck that would get hosed by well timed sweepers into something that is able to last more into the mid-range.  Also, you can't bank everything on Assemble saving you as cards like Golgari Charm, Drown in Sorrow, and Bile Blight can easily clear away your token army for them to swing in for fatal.  Personally, Elspeth is a better option than Assemble anyway, as she actually will outpace it for the first six or seven turns (by which point she's already used her ultimate and won you the game).

Feel free to take or leave the thoughts but I'm tinkering with W/u (splashing for Ephara and D-sphere) with Gideon, Elspeth, and Angel in the main and it's actually performing quite well.

Re: [Standard] White Weenie, splash Red

Solid suggestions. I'll tinker around with it a little bit, as I have pretty much 100% of the cards (minus Brimaz. I will probably end up buying the rest of him but I'm sure he'll sink back to $25 or lower in the next few weeks.) and see how it goes.

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Re: [Standard] White Weenie, splash Red

I don't know that he's going to drop off anytime soon.  While the supply will go up as more packs are opened, he's a solid card that has the potential to see play in Modern and potentially even Legacy, so his value will likely stay pretty high... not that it really helps... I would keep my eyes on him for a week or so but if you need them for gameday or something, you might just have to bite the bullet.

Re: [Standard] White Weenie, splash Red

Hey! Time for an update:

So, I listened to TyWooOneTime's suggestions and edited the mainboard to his recommendations. I for the first time played the deck tonight and it did wonderful in a variety of matchups. I went 2-1 but that's only because my friend and I left for a draft somewhere else (we were paired in the final round) and we did one game to decide the winner (but its okay, in practice beforehand I beat him 2-0 :#)

So, here's the improved decklist and sideboard first off: http://deckbox.org/sets/623940

I unfortunately never really got to use Brimaz for its full potential as it always seemed to just be destroyed before I could do anything with it, but the changes worked out real well in the deck. I was skeptical about Boros Elite but I often found him being a 3/3 and he was quite the beater at that point. Throwing in an extra Spear also seemed odd but I think almost every game I found one and it put my weenies over the top.

So I guess I just want to say thank you first and foremost for your suggestions : )

Anyways, past that, the other thing I wanted to ask is what I'm supposed to do about Jund midrange, A.K.A. Sylvan Caryad, Courser of Kruphix and Polukranos with kill spells. I actually played against two (although one was just G/R and ran Stormbreath and Domri's, so more of a G/R Superfriend build) and they caused me a lot of grief, as it took many Brave the Elements to deal with them. What do I sideboard in this case? I think I threw in Fiendslayer, a copy of Assemble the Legion and two more charms but I didn't draw them so I can't talk about their effeciency. I feel like Spirit of the Labyrinth might be a good board in just so if he blocks with a Caryad it dies, but I'm not sure. Also, I didn't originally have Angel of Serenity boarded but after the tournament I threw out a Glare of Heresy for it.

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Re: [Standard] White Weenie, splash Red

First off, no problem.  The whole idea behind these forums is to provide useful feedback.  I'm glad it was able to help you.

That being said, for the board if you're struggling against Jund or mid-range decks, you would be better suited to have some added mid-rangey power cards in the board to slide in.  Angel of Serenity is an easy one.  Elspeth is also pretty much a given, as would be something like Heliod.  You might also want something to try to go around the threats they're going to be sitting on.  Whether those come in the form of Banisher Priests in the board or even Ajani, Caller of the Pride to get you there.

Brimaz really doesn't have to stick around for long to really have an impact.  Just think of how many times he was hit immediately today... now think about how many of your other creatures survived as a function of Brimaz drawing so much attention.

Ultimately, there really just are some decks that have great match-ups against others.  The fact that Anger of the Gods, Drown in Sorrow or any other sweeper will just hose you in a LOT of instances.  You're well suited in most of your match-ups and that's about the best you can hope for.  Such is the beauty of the game, as if there were a deck that just beats everyone else, well, everyone would just play that deck.