Topic: (Standard) Grixis Control

I watched Patrick Chapin's Worlds 2011 deck tech, and then the finals of GP Orlando in 2012 where he used a similar Grixis Control deck and really liked the idea behind digging for answers.  I quickly put together a Standard deck that used Dimir Charm and Izzet Charm in a similar way to dig for answers.  I also included 3x turn // burn and 3x far // away for their incredible flexibility.

Long story short, I played the deck against a Rakdos aggro deck and Brad Nelson's Esper Humans deck with limited success.  Against aggro it was almost there, but couldn't stablize outside of Lightning Strike range.  I was not impressed with Dimir Charm and Far-Away, but loved Izzet Charm and Turn-Burn.

Here are my 2 new iterations based off what I learned.  The first fully embraces black, using Hero's Downfall to deal with Desecration Demons and planeswalkers, and Thoughtseize to deal with enchantments.  It uses 2x Rakdos Keyrune to fix black mana and help ramp into bigger Returns.  It wins with Rakdos's Return and Aetherling, or Frostburn Weird and Keyrune beats.  The sideboard is a first stab based on zero testing and a MUD and Gr Monsters-heavy metagame.

http://deckbox.org/sets/561067

The second idea is more of a RU deck that splashes black for Thoughtseize and Rakdos's Return.  It has an additional Anger of the Gods and main deck Whelming Wave to deal with mono blue and R/G Monsters since I don't have access to Supreme Verdict.  It wins in the same way, but I feel like there's some really good synergy between the Wave and the Return.

http://deckbox.org/sets/596053

Let me know what you think.  I play Esper Control, and appreciate the dominance of U/W.  However, I'm a brewer at heart, a total Johnny that wants to win in a unique way, and I had a lot of fun with this deck when I tested it.  It felt more challenging than the Supreme Verdict-based control decks.

Let me know what you think.  Has anyone tried something similar?  Are there Born of the Gods cards that I'm not thinking of that would strengthen the deck?

Last edited by Timber (2014-02-04 17:33:45)

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

I'd like to say, i really like the "idea" of grixis, but, idk if it can work... that being said.

The deck looks like it has what it needs, wipes for aggro, ways to interact with gods and blood baron,  I think you're a little soft to control, but you said that's not a factor in your meta.

UW has 12 cards that draw for it, you're lacking a couple, and izzet charm doen'st really draw it cycles your hand. 

I might be worried about running out of steam.  I think if anything you're lacking in that department with this deck, but I'm not sure what there is in those colors to boost your draw power.  Read the Bones perhaps?  it hurts you more but it digs 4 cards.  Also, an opportunity or 2 would be the worst thing, or even steam augury.

I would also play an elixir and maybe one of the side, it's 5 life, which you'll need in the deck, and it can recycle cards your discarding with izzet charm and augury if you choose to play it. you are hurting yourself a lot with thoughtseize and the shocks... 

I might look into alternate forms of life gain... idk what that would be though. Aggro or burn might be able to get there against you just because of the lack of life gain.

Last edited by elpablo (2014-02-04 18:36:37)

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

I agree that I'm basing this off the "idea" of Grixis control.  There are just so many flexible and good answers in the color suite though that I can't help but work on it.

I think the life loss is a real issue.  However, I think a big part of my inability to stabilize soon enough was the lack of board wipe spells.  Needs more Anger (said like Christopher Walken).  Elixir is something I've thought about too.

Here's the original list that I tested:

4 Frostburn Weird
2 Aetherling
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Syncopate
4 Izzet Charm
2 Far // Away
3 Turn // Burn
3 Steam Augury
3 Dimir Charm
4 Thoughtseize
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Divination
1 Rakdos's Return
4 Blood Crypt
6 Island
3 Mountain
1 Izzet Guildgate
3 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Watery Grave

What I learned:
- Ashiok - very swingy.  An all-star in some games and a waste of a card in others.  probably win-more. CUT
- Niv-Mizzet - awesome against all of the x/1 creatures in the format, but doesn't affect the board until the turn AFTER he comes down.  Weak win condition.  Good theory, poor execution. CUT
- Dimir Charm - not as effective as I expected, but I didn't play either monoU or monoB with lots of 2/x guys.  The digging aspect was not good.  I mis-calculated it. CUT
- Far // Away - meh.  Not as flexible as I wanted it to be.  Perhaps better against BW. CUT 1
- Turn // Burn - Awesome.  Always liked having it in my hand.  ADD 1
- Izzet Charm - solid.  2 damage was relevant and cycling was pretty effective.
- Steam Augury - It usually hit and created issues for my opponents, but too sporatic.  CUT - ADD Jace, AOT
- Syncopate - mostly dead.  I'd rather just have a hard counter. CUT - ADD Dissolve
- Frostburn Weird - Awesome.  Stopped all x/1 creatures; survives Anger; combos with Turn // Burn on turn 3.

- The deck needed more spot removal that didn't cost 5.  ADD Dreadbore
- I only cast one Anger of the Gods and it was super effective.  ADD more
- The deck was really weak to Soldier of the Pantheon since most spells are multi-colored.

Last edited by Timber (2014-02-04 19:21:44)

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

I think I agree with most of your points at the bottom... Seems like you're kind of vulnerable to planes walkers too. 

Try the elixir see how it feels?  I think you'll like it.

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

what about the new Black AOE removals?

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

Drown in sorry isn't as good as anger really it only does -2.  The other one does -3, and to mobs with the same name,  so it's a little better agains agro/GR.  idk... though have to test.

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

I think they're both side board cards and I'm not sure that I want to commit that much to black.  I have to try out Hero's Downfall, but there's a possiblity that the BB is too hard to get consistently.

I think I'd rather have Flames of the Firebrand over Drown in Sorry, not Sorry in most aggro matchups.

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

nearly half your lands produce black. Im not sure I see how it would be that hard. Especially if you figure that these are the supposed cards that have proven to everyone that 'aggro is dead' (hyperbole much?)

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

downfall is definitely worth it.  The others I'd have to try out.  I think they'll make mono black's 75, but a 3 color deck wouldn't want to run all of them.

10 Reply by TRZ

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

What about Dreadbore?

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

TRZ wrote:

What about Dreadbore?

My thought has always been to run a combination of both.  You can use Downfall at instant speed on a LOT of things, freeing up your mana on your turn.  For those less pressing critters/walkers, Dreadbore it up.  Although I would probably run a 4-2 split in favor of Downfall.

12 Reply by TRZ

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

If we focus on Dreadbore as a potential walker killer (which seems to be the focus of most people in regards to Hero's). I think its perhaps more useful. You cant nuke a walker before its ability goes on the stack (I dont think?) so Dread Bore frees you up early game to drop some hate on your opponent some other way before your turn and then bang walkers dead and late to mid game keeps that extra mana free so you could Dreadbore and then say Divination.


Thats not to say that Downfall is bad just that I think Dreadbore may be more useful in a control type setting.

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

The Sorcery speed of Dreadbore is what makes it meh.  Ideally, I don't want to cast anything on my turn that isn't a board wipe, Rakdos's Return or Aetherling.

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

Here's a Chapin planeswalker pile.  I doubt he put a ton of thought into this since it's one of 22 decks in his recent premium article.

Planeswalkers (11)
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Ral Zarek

Spells (23)
2 Far-Away
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Divination
4 Dreadbore
2 Gild
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Thoughtseize


Lands (26)
3 Island
3 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malice
4 Watery Grave

Sideboard
1 Aetherling
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Underworld Connections
2 Counterflux
4 Gainsay
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

that's a deck too...

um, idk, I never liked ral zerik, he's a 4 mana lightning strike with some wonky other abilities that don't pan out in the real world.  Chandra is just red jace in this deck which is fine. this might be a better meta deck for you though since it appears to represent more board control. 4 slot seems clogged though

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

I agree.  I'm not a Ral Zarek fan either.  He's too much of an aggro card to be UR.  Perhaps if the Inspired mechanic was more viable he'd be better.

This list suffers from card advantage problems too.  I get that Planeswalkers are indirect card advantage, but this group doesn't do enough to advance my board state or get me closer to a win condition to get me interested.

I'd really like to play Chandra and Prognostic Sphinx together, but that's way too slow.

17 Reply by TRZ

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

Zarek is still a bolt on a stick  or essentially a mana ramp. That could be useful but not necessarily great. What about erebos as a way of digging deeper in emergencies?

Right I get the instant speed advantage in general. But paying a premium for it on a card that doesnt get major advantage out of that speed doesnt make sense to me. I mean I get why sorc speed hampers say pillar of flame but dreadbore is great for what you need it for. Same as divination.  If I gave you divination at instant for cmc 4 is that an auto include over divination? My inclination is no but maybe I just dont get control.

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

Zarek is barely a bolt on a stick... as a 4 drop he doesn't deal with any other relevant 4 drops and he comes down a turn late for the "ramp" aspect to work out... he really needed to be a 3 mana walker, he'd see tons of play then.  If he was 3 cost he could enable a sweeper on turn 4 and tick up.  At 4, he's just bolt and fog for turn.  I think he actually makes the most sense in some kind of aggro deck? that might be able to make use of inspired?  He's defiantly not a control card.

Divination sees play in control because it can dig 2 cards deep for a verdict on turn 4 if you need a sweeper.  That's why it's in UW. There's a 4 mana instant that draws 2 from RTR called inspiration, and it's _not_ played for exactly this reason. 

Dreadbore is fine for what he's trying to do in this deck.  It's basically a BR control deck that uses blue for draw power.  It taps out each turn playing some kind of sweeper or 1-1 removal like mono black and grinds out the game until it takes over.  It's got way too many 4 drops though.

19 Reply by TRZ

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

true I run Zareck in a R/U tempo and he works a treat.

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

Forgot to post this update last month.  I played an updated Grixis Control deck.  http://deckbox.org/sets/561067

It CRUSHED the control decks that I played.  Unfortunately, both were brews, one Bant, one Esper, both with sub-optimal cards and new pilots.  The greatest feeling was Rakdos's Returning for x=5 after my Bant opponent tapped out for Elspeth...redirected the damage to Elspeth. 
sad <--- him   
lol <--- me

Lost to a Naya.....aggro/midrange? I guess you'd call it deck.  Just too many threats for me to 1-for-1.  Boarded in Anger, but didn't draw one.

Lost to Junk Renanimator.  I threw 2 Rakdos Charms in my SB just before leaving the house and did draw one against him in G2, but wasn't enough.  I have to Negate his Whip of Erebos or I lose.


I haven't played the deck since, but I'm working on acquiring the RU Temples and a Keranos to try it out with updated mana base.  The Keyrunes were very relevant for ramp, fixing and closing out the game after I Return their whole hand away.  Ral Zarek really did nothing.  He ramped me once, but everything he does is just meh.  I really liked playing the deck.  It was super complicated which is cool.

I EFFing LOVE casting Rakdos's Return.  Even more than I love casting Sphinx's Revelation.

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

For what it's worth, this Grixis Brew I tossed together has played well when I've tinkered with it on untap... it feels a bit durdly given that the win-cons are so hard to come by, but with sooooo many answers I've often found myself just hanging out while the opponent top-decks... then Keranos comes down and you kinda just chuckle as you're drawing and bolting things...

http://deckbox.org/sets/659403

Oddly enough, Hypersonic Dragon has actually performed well in here, although I don't know that I can really think of many reasons not to just swap it with Niv-Mizzet if that's more your cup of tea.  I just liked the idea of being able to cast Whelming Wave at instant speed in a pinch.

Note that against control, you really just side in all the counters for the removal that is more suited for the creature match-ups...

Re: (Standard) Grixis Control

Man, I totally thought of the Mogis-Keranos idea too.  It's a 4-turn indestructible clock...if you can draw it.  Probably too cute, but why not?

I've always dreamed about Hypersonic Dragon in Magical Christmas Land.  Instant-speed Dreadbore, Anger, Divination or Rakdos's Return is awesome.  Niv-Mizzet just can't do anything until the turn after he comes down.  Although, I've never tried playing him and pretending he's an 8-drop...which would probably be stupid now that I type it.

I really liked having 3 Rakdos's Returns.  Drawing 2 of them is pretty lights out, even if your first one is only for x=3.  I don't know if the deck can win if you don't resolve at least one of them.