Spoook wrote: @Sergiu... asta nu am inteles:

Valakut care m-a nimicit 2-0 doar pentru ca n-am stiut ca prostu ca Act of Aggression dat la momentul oportun (EOT_ul adversarului) iti da creatura targetuita pana tura ta urmatoare

- iti da creatura doar pana la sfarsitul turei in care ai furat....sau tu nu asa credeai?

Pai daca pe End of Turn-ul oponentului eu ii fur Titan-ul, acesta ramane sub controlul meu pana la urmatorul End of Turn, care este cel de pe tura mea. Asta imi permite sa fac investitia de 3 sau 5 mana pentru Act pe sfarsitul turei adversarului. E ca si copia de la Mimic Vat facuta pe EOT-ul adversarului.

Aici am o intrebare: deci Mimic Vat-ul zice ca trebuie sa-l exilezi la inceputul URMATORULUI end step, deci daca la sfarsitul turei faci o copie, logic ca-ti ramane pe battlefield tura ta. Dar Act Of Aggression zice ca pana la sfarsitul turei respective controlezi creatura. Acuma furatul cu AoA nu este inca in tura respectiva? Deci daca it ifur eu cu Aoa la sfarsitul turei tale, asta e inca tura ta nu? deci practic tura nu se termina acolo, ci dupa ce am furat. Nu trebuie sa-ti dau inapoi creatura?

@Fistyke: Nu. E o chestiune verificata la un Judge. Poate Scorpse ne poate explica mai pe indelete cum sta treaba cu Act-ul asta ;)

singerete wrote:@Fistyke: Nu. E o chestiune verificata la un Judge. Poate Scorpse ne poate explica mai pe indelete cum sta treaba cu Act-ul asta ;)

514. Cleanup Step

514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.

514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:

514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger "at the beginning of the next cleanup step"). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass, another cleanup step begins.

(514.1 facea referire la Maximum hand-size. M-am gandit ca nu are relevanta)
Ce inteleg din asta e ca, daca dai Act of Aggression, o sa inceapa un alt cleanup step care o sa anuleze efectul vrajii? Is this right?

singerete wrote:Pai daca pe End of Turn-ul oponentului eu ii fur Titan-ul, acesta ramane sub controlul meu pana la urmatorul End of Turn, care este cel de pe tura mea. Asta imi permite sa fac investitia de 3 sau 5 mana pentru Act pe sfarsitul turei adversarului. E ca si copia de la Mimic Vat facuta pe EOT-ul adversarului.

Nunu, bine ai stiut initial... end of turn ii dupa beginning of end step (ultimul moment in care puteai juca act), face parte din cleanup si nu poti juca nimic dupa el.

Act zice ca este until eot, deci va tine pana in end step..care este imediat dupa eot, cand poti face aceasta vraja.
El merge cu deceiver pentru ca spliterul creeaza un delayed triggered ability, si tokenii iti vor ramane tine, dar deceiverul original se duce inapoi. toto de asta e bien sa il dai tapat inapoi ca sa nu faca si el tokeni si sa iti blocheze pe ai tai.


si nu nu este vorba de cleanup step. Ci de end step:

513. End Step
513.1. First, all abilities that trigger “at the beginning of the end step” or “at the beginning of the next
end step” go on the stack. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”)
513.1a Previously, abilities that trigger at the beginning of the end step were printed with the trigger
condition “at end of turn.” Cards that were printed with that text have received errata in the
Oracle card reference to say “at the beginning of the end step” or “at the beginning of the next
end step.”
513.2. Second, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.
513.3. If a permanent with an ability that triggers “at the beginning of the end step” enters the
battlefield during this step, that ability won’t trigger until the next turn’s end step. Likewise, if a
delayed triggered ability that triggers “at the beginning of the next end step” is created during this
step, that ability won’t trigger until the next turn’s end step. In other words, the step doesn’t “back
up” so those abilities can go on the stack. This rule applies only to triggered abilities; it doesn’t
apply to continuous effects whose durations say “until end of turn” or “this turn.” (See rule 514,
“Cleanup Step.”)


Edited to reflect the real rule. Sorry

imi pare rau sa va contrazic.. si nu vreu sa fac pe desteptul... insa este asa: (si o sa caut si articol imediat :P )

daca esti deja in "end step" (sa zicem al adversarului) atunci triggerii care zic "at the beginning of the next end step." s-au declansat deja, iar in end step daca apare ceva cu acest trigger (vezi Mimic Vat) o sa triggeruiasca la tura urmatoare (pe tura ta). Aici intervine acel "the step doesn’t “back up” ".

Dar lucrurile care zic "until end of turn" sunt... cum am crede in mod intuitiv....pana la sfarsitul turei respective. Deci daca joci act pe sfarsitul turei al adversarului... ai cam irosit actul.

Ciudat cum Scorpse te cotrazici:
"Pentru ca act of aggresion zice until eot, daca este castat pe eot, el va tine pana la urmatorul eot."
"his rule applies only to triggered abilities; it doesn’t apply to continuous effects whose durations say “until end of turn” or “this turn.”"

dar cum am zis.. revin cu articol :P

Eu nu cred ca-i delayed trigger effect... delayed triggered effect ii ce creaza mimic vat pentru token, efectul asta ii mai degraba ca un land animat sau Giant Growth, un efect static care expira la final de tura. Din cate tin minte "beginning of the end step" a fost introdus in loc de "at end of turn" tocmai ca sa elimine din confuzia cauzata de "end step" si end of turn-ul actual.

Am gasit si articolul in care o explicat rule change-ul:

2D) Beginning of the End Step

The Reality: The subtle but important difference between the phrases "at end of turn" and "until end of turn" in our card templates is a constant source of confusion for players. "At end of turn" really means "at the beginning of the end-of-turn step," which is not the actual end of the turn. In fact, it is often strategically correct to take certain actions during the end-of-turn step after "at end of turn" triggers are processed, which many players have trouble wrapping their heads around. Compounding this is the fact that "until end of turn" effects, like that of Giant Growth, last until the actual end of the turn.

The Fix: This one didn't involve the creation of any new terminology. Instead, it involves a minor rules update (changing the name of the "end-of-turn step" to the "end step") and a change in how we are templating cards. We will now refer to the time when such triggers happen as what it actually is: "at the beginning of the end step." Hopefully this will more clearly convey the existence of a window in the turn after these triggers occur during which more spells and abilities can be used. "Until end of turn" will still be used for effects with durations such as Giant Growth.

Cartea zice until end of turn, nu zice "until the beginning of the end step"... si da, pe end step poti juca spell-uri, dar pe end of turn nu.

Daca nu va decideti, vedeti cum se comporta regula la MTGO :-)
2 jucati si refaceti situatia. Eu asa fac cand nu sunt sigur de ceva.

da corect m-am luat cu altele si m-am gandit la altceva...


ma gnadeam ca iti raman tokenii de deceiver insa cel original pleaca la locul lui...... !!!


silly me....

da ..efectul se face din eot pana pe end step.... delayul este cel al splinterului. el are un static gain control effect.


sorry pt greseala. asta cand mai dai un ochi pe forum cand muncesti :P

Deci eu sunt sigur ca orice ce zice until end of turn, expira la sfarsitul turei, indiferent cum "s-a produs" acel sfarsit. Deci Act of Aggression pe tura adversarului nu te ajuta cu mult.

niste referinte:

Q: Can I take a creature permanently with Act of Treason and Sundial of the Infinite?

A: That would make Sundial of the Infinite Possibilities even crazier! But no, you can't do that. Act of Treason doesn't have an end step trigger like unearth does; it has a continuous effect that expires during the cleanup step. It's one of those "until end of turn" effects that Sundial's reminder text mentions; ending the turn skips straight over to the cleanup step when Act's effect will expire.
http://mtgsalvation.com/1307-cranial-insertion-question-walk.html

Q: Can I give Skinshifter flying on my opponent's turn, then make it 4/4 on my turn to swing for 4 in the air?

A: Nope. Skinshifter's skin shifting wears off during the cleanup step – you can tell because it says "until end of turn." You're confusing this with "at the beginning of the end step" triggers, which are very, very different and can be finagled to not trigger until the following turn, but there is no way at all in black-bordered Magic to get an "until end of turn" effect to last to the next turn.
http://mtgsalvation.com/1296-cranial-insertion-magic-and-the-mayan-apocalypse.html

In cazul in care nici acum nu v-am convins, va invit sa scrieri la cranial.insertion@gmail.com sau sa vizitati forumul de la wizards :)

Spoook wrote:Deci eu sunt sigur ca orice ce zice until end of turn, expira la sfarsitul turei, indiferent cum "s-a produs" acel sfarsit. Deci Act of Aggression pe tura adversarului nu te ajuta cu mult.

niste referinte:

Q: Can I take a creature permanently with Act of Treason and Sundial of the Infinite?

A: That would make Sundial of the Infinite Possibilities even crazier! But no, you can't do that. Act of Treason doesn't have an end step trigger like unearth does; it has a continuous effect that expires during the cleanup step. It's one of those "until end of turn" effects that Sundial's reminder text mentions; ending the turn skips straight over to the cleanup step when Act's effect will expire.
http://mtgsalvation.com/1307-cranial-insertion-question-walk.html

Q: Can I give Skinshifter flying on my opponent's turn, then make it 4/4 on my turn to swing for 4 in the air?

A: Nope. Skinshifter's skin shifting wears off during the cleanup step – you can tell because it says "until end of turn." You're confusing this with "at the beginning of the end step" triggers, which are very, very different and can be finagled to not trigger until the following turn, but there is no way at all in black-bordered Magic to get an "until end of turn" effect to last to the next turn.
http://mtgsalvation.com/1296-cranial-insertion-magic-and-the-mayan-apocalypse.html

In cazul in care nici acum nu v-am convins, va invit sa scrieri la cranial.insertion@gmail.com sau sa vizitati forumul de la wizards :)

da expira...eu aveam in gand trigerul delayed de la splinter twin.....

si am pus deja errata :d


mai gresim si noi....ideea sa ajungem la rezultatul cre trebuie.

lasa ca sunt aici sa te corectez :P :P :P :cool: :cool: :cool: (I are smarts :P )

Vai spoook, de cand esti asa de modest? :P



Anyway, concluzia ii ca act of agression pe splinter twinned exarch tot ii play awesome, nu? :P Doar sa fie dat cu grija, pe exarch tapat :P

Trickster wrote:Vai spoook, de cand esti asa de modest? :P



Anyway, concluzia ii ca act of agression pe splinter twinned exarch tot ii play awesome, nu? :P Doar sa fie dat cu grija, pe exarch tapat :P

nu neaparat....poti da in raspuns la castarea enchantment.....enchantmentul tot intra.....


dar ideea e ca At the EOT va trebui sa iti faci de x mii de copii si apoi la ultimul trigger de exarh sa ii tapezi lui ceva (sau sa iti detapezi altceva decat exarhul ala) pentru ca ii vine inapoi. Daca ii vine detapat pe tura urmaotare face si el copii si iti blocheaza pe ale tale.

lasa-ma sa ma bucur si eu un pic :)

sper ca nici Scorpse nu se supara...stiu ca nu se supara

Si da... e bine daca ajungi sa dai pe exarch si idea este ca dupa ce ai facut o multime de tokeni, sa ramai cu exarch tapat, inca pe tura adversarului, sa dai inapoi tapat (in timp ce ii explici de ce trebuie sa dea conceed :) )

Se poate ca partea asta cu act sa mutam separat, sa nu stricam threadul de Natioanale? :)

Scorpse wrote:nu neaparat....poti da in raspuns la castarea enchantment.....enchantmentul tot intra.....

Mda, intr-adevar nu prea conteaza momentul... sau cu enchantment-ul pe stack, si si daca-l dai pe exarch netapat poti face o tona+1 de copii cu care sa blochezi alea cu care o sa te atace el.

Gabi aici ratezi frumusetea efectului. TU poti sa-i furi Exarch-ul, sa faci o tona de copii, dupa care dai Exarch-il tapat inapoi cu tot cu splinter iar pe tura ta il ataci cu tokenii facuti pentru damage letal. Si se poate!

Ah, tot mai poti face asta... Faci o tona de copii sa blochezi, si pe eot mai faci o tona sa ataci pe tura ta (si pasezi exarch tapat).

Exact.

sa nu uitam aici ca exarchul nu neaparat trebuie sa fie netapat, in momentul cand furi, incat actul untapeaza. In situatia in care adversarul din ceva motiv (sa zicem fog) ajunge la sfarsitul turei sale si face/a facut x tokeni, tu poti sa furi exarchul, faci x+lethal si dai inapoi tapat... si gata. Sa nu uitam ca in magic nu exista infinit, deci adversarul tot timpul o sa stie cate tokeni ai facut.