Topic: (Standard) Mardu Control/ Grixis Control

I was taking a look around at decks that are floating around, and took a liking to this area, and threw together parts that I liked of each. Considering I have never truely "played" a control deck, I am unsure of if this is a worthy list of using. Seems like blue helps a bit more for control, but it seems like this can deal with things when they are on the board. All in all, not really too sure about it and its numbers. Also a thing to note is that is has no sideboard aside from a thought of Tormods Crypt against Jace.

Mardu
http://deckbox.org/sets/803560

Grixis
https://deckbox.org/sets/804740

Last edited by majormogley (2014-10-11 07:02:46)

Tradelist     Wishlist

Re: (Standard) Mardu Control/ Grixis Control

cool

Tradelist     Wishlist

Re: (Standard) Mardu Control/ Grixis Control

Okay, so first and foremost, if you're looking for a controlling build, you really need to generate card advantage.  Typically this is done with blue or black providing some means of added card draw, but in Mardu colors, your only quality options are in black (my how we miss Underworld Connections).  But, before we go jamming 4x Read the Bones and 4x Sign in Blood and all that into the deck, another way to generate card advantage is to make 2-for-1 or better plays, where your removal will actually take out more than just one target.  In this capacity, you actually have access to all of the best options available in standard, namely Drown in Sorrow, Anger of the Gods, End Hostilities, and to lesser degrees Extinguish All Hope and Fated Retribution.

That much being said, I think the build is currently sub-optimal.  It's on the right path, but it really lacks these means of generating card advantage.  Sadly Chandra, Pyromaster is a bad option here, as her +0 ability will end up hitting your removal spells a lot of the time and you might not have legal targets or might not want to use that particular piece of removal at that specific time... as a result, you end up exiling your removal options and limiting your lines of play for later in the game.

So, how can we shape this thing up?  I would propose the following changes:

1) Completely move Bile Blight to the SB.  Most commonly this is just a 1-for-1 card and, honestly, you have plenty of those available.  You can side it in if someone is running a deck with tons of redundancy where you feel it is beneficial.
2) -1x Hero's Downfall and +1x Mardu Charm.  Downfall is good, but Charm gives you the ability to go on offense with the tokens or even to make the opponent discard during their draw phase.
3) -1x Utter End.  This is really just too mana intensive to really be efficient.  It's nice to have 2x in case you need one in a pinch, but I wouldn't go more than that.
4) Obviously if you have them you can swap Despise with Thoughtseize as it's just a better card, but, in the event you don't have the cards or $60 to just drop on cardboard, Despise will work in a pinch.
5) -1x End Hostilities.  It's the premier sweeper out there at the moment, but I'd much rather free up that spot for Anger of the Gods.
6) Move Suspension Field over to the SB and fill those slots with Banishing Light.  Sure, it costs 1 more, but it can hit anything outside of a land and that versatility is what you're looking for.
7) -2x Chandra, Pyromaster see above, and -1x of both Sarkhan and Elspeth (I'll explain this one in a minute).
8) -2x Lightning Strike.  It's nice and cheap, but Anger will hit more than one creature and odds are that you won't need the burn given your win conditions.

So you're currently sitting with 11 open slots to add cards.

9) +4x Anger of the Gods.  It's so much cheaper than End Hostilities and will just HOSE any aggro build and, outside of Courser, neuters Mono-Green Devotion.
10) +3x Stormbreath Dragon.  Sure, it's like more Sarkhans, but the pro-white is relevant a LOT and it's just another threat the opponent will have to deal with.
11) +3x Read the Bones.  While I personally like Sign in Blood in more situations, the BB mana requirement is a bit harder to hit reliably, so bones it is!  This will give you the full suite of them so that you can really dig for cards.
12) +1x Liliana Vess.  She'll help punish opponents who have stuff in their hands, can help tutor up that board wipe you need, and, in the event you can ever get her to ultimate (while the opponent is worrying about Elspeth or Sarkhan), she'll just win the game given the fact you've been filling the opponent's yard this whole time.  Even in a worst-case scenario, she makes the opponent focus on her life total and not yours for a while.

Anyway, those are the changes I'd make.  I can't say I've played a ton with the KTK cards, but given the limited exposure I've had, this will work much more effectively than what your previous list had.

I hope it helps.  Good luck!

Last edited by TyWooOneTime (2014-10-10 18:03:50)

Re: (Standard) Mardu Control/ Grixis Control

TyWooOneTime wrote:

Okay, so first and foremost, if you're looking for a controlling build, you really need to generate card advantage.  Typically this is done with blue or black providing some means of added card draw, but in Mardu colors, your only quality options are in black (my how we miss Underworld Connections).  But, before we go jamming 4x Read the Bones and 4x Sign in Blood and all that into the deck, another way to generate card advantage is to make 2-for-1 or better plays, where your removal will actually take out more than just one target.  In this capacity, you actually have access to all of the best options available in standard, namely Drown in Sorrow, Anger of the Gods, End Hostilities, and to lesser degrees Extinguish All Hope and Fated Retribution.

That much being said, I think the build is currently sub-optimal.  It's on the right path, but it really lacks these means of generating card advantage.  Sadly Chandra, Pyromaster is a bad option here, as her +0 ability will end up hitting your removal spells a lot of the time and you might not have legal targets or might not want to use that particular piece of removal at that specific time... as a result, you end up exiling your removal options and limiting your lines of play for later in the game.

So, how can we shape this thing up?  I would propose the following changes:

1) Completely move Bile Blight to the SB.  Most commonly this is just a 1-for-1 card and, honestly, you have plenty of those available.  You can side it in if someone is running a deck with tons of redundancy where you feel it is beneficial.
2) -1x Hero's Downfall and +1x Mardu Charm.  Downfall is good, but Charm gives you the ability to go on offense with the tokens or even to make the opponent discard during their draw phase.
3) -1x Utter End.  This is really just too mana intensive to really be efficient.  It's nice to have 2x in case you need one in a pinch, but I wouldn't go more than that.
4) Obviously if you have them you can swap Despise with Thoughtseize as it's just a better card, but, in the event you don't have the cards or $60 to just drop on cardboard, Despise will work in a pinch.
5) -1x End Hostilities.  It's the premier sweeper out there at the moment, but I'd much rather free up that spot for Anger of the Gods.
6) Move Suspension Field over to the SB and fill those slots with Banishing Light.  Sure, it costs 1 more, but it can hit anything outside of a land and that versatility is what you're looking for.
7) -2x Chandra, Pyromaster see above, and -1x of both Sarkhan and Elspeth (I'll explain this one in a minute).
8) -2x Lightning Strike.  It's nice and cheap, but Anger will hit more than one creature and odds are that you won't need the burn given your win conditions.

So you're currently sitting with 11 open slots to add cards.

9) +4x Anger of the Gods.  It's so much cheaper than End Hostilities and will just HOSE any aggro build and, outside of Courser, neuters Mono-Green Devotion.
10) +3x Stormbreath Dragon.  Sure, it's like more Sarkhans, but the pro-white is relevant a LOT and it's just another threat the opponent will have to deal with.
11) +3x Read the Bones.  While I personally like Sign in Blood in more situations, the BB mana requirement is a bit harder to hit reliably, so bones it is!  This will give you the full suite of them so that you can really dig for cards.
12) +1x Liliana Vess.  She'll help punish opponents who have stuff in their hands, can help tutor up that board wipe you need, and, in the event you can ever get her to ultimate (while the opponent is worrying about Elspeth or Sarkhan), she'll just win the game given the fact you've been filling the opponent's yard this whole time.  Even in a worst-case scenario, she makes the opponent focus on her life total and not yours for a while.

Anyway, those are the changes I'd make.  I can't say I've played a ton with the KTK cards, but given the limited exposure I've had, this will work much more effectively than what your previous list had.

I hope it helps.  Good luck!

So far I have made a different list because of the lack of blue for counter magic that I feel makes a control deck tick a bit better. So in order to gain blue, I dropped White. It did not feel as though it was doing a whole lot for me aside from for Elspeth, End Hostilities, etc., and even that needs a bit of support, rather than sitting back and waiting for things to resolve.

Having said the list has changed, I have still taken some parts of what you have said into consideration for the new list, and I do see where they would work better than what I had implemented initialy. Though, with the addition of blue, I have over-done the amount of cards that I am choosing from, and thus overflowed the card count.

Here are some of the concerns I have with the cards I have chosen:
- I am unsure of the numbers I have chosen, and the viability of their usefulness. Many of them are built upon what I think may help, but its not to say it will support in the way it clicks in my head. A lot of them may just be making it even more clunky.

-Creature(s) that I am looking to include in the list (if any) are Keranos, God of Storms, Prognostic Sphinx, and Stormbreath Dragon. Keranos I see as a decent utility, especially since he nets you either damage or extra cards, and is not a creature, but that seems like his lack of body at times could be a problem. Pronostic I have seen in increased use in control decks, and I'd have to say it works quite nicely, settling up your card draws for 3 turns with a swing, and providing a way to protect it. Then Stormbreath is quite the card in standard, having the Pro-Wite being very relivant, and being a 4/4 body ready to fight as it comes out. They all seem like decent picks, but I have no idea which one I would choose.

-Strength of the overall build seems to be a pending thought going through my head. I have not found any lists of Grixis coloration for standard yet, but I feel it to be somewhat possible.

I appreciate all of the feedback you have given me up to this point, and thank you greatly for taking the time to give your critiques upon the decks I throw together.

Tradelist     Wishlist

Re: (Standard) Mardu Control/ Grixis Control

So having looked at the Grixis build, a few thoughts. 

1) You have a LOT of double-colored mana costs in there and not all in the same color.  To that end, I think you're probably going to struggle most with the mana and would even suggest potentially using the refuge cycle duals from KTK to help ensure you hit all your colors. 

2) You have 8 fetches but only 5 basics.  Based on this, you cannot actually crack all the fetches to get land... I would likely move both fetches to 3x and then slide in one or two more basics.

3) Keranos is an absolute boss, but you have to keep in mind that he likely won't ever be turned on.  This isn't really an issue as never-ending bolts are always fun to begin with.

4) Dig Through Time is doing work at the Pro-Tour, but I cannot underscore how powerful Treasure Cruise is.  I haven't even played the card myself, but have seen it enough already to see how much work the mid-game Ancestral Recall can do.

4) I'm not a fan of Steam Augury as it's both giving the opponent information AND a choice in what you get.  The choice part of Jace, AOT was fine because you could do it over-and-over again, but for a one shot?  I'm not a big fan.

5) Not sold on Pearl Lake Ancient in here either.  He's big, has flash, and does all that well and all, but he doesn't have evasion once he's on the field.  He'll just run into chumps all day long against many decks.  I think you would be better to up your counts of Prognostic Sphinx and/or Stormbreath Dragon.

6) Jace, the Living Guildpact doesn't really do much here that I can see.  Liliana Vess as I referenced for the Mardu control build would likely be a better option.

7) You need more than 2x sweepers... you'll just lose out on tempo if you don't have more than that.

8) I had a build pre-rotation that capitalized on the fact that you'll already be clearing the board with removal by using Mogis, God of Slaughter to make a clock for the opponent... combine Mogis with Keranos and that's a lava axe every turn.

9) Disdainful Stroke should at least be in the SB.  It lets you just laugh at non-aggro builds all day long countering everything from Polukranos to Elspeth to Jace's Ingenuity.

I'm sure I can think of more stuff... but this is just what's hitting me at the moment.

Re: (Standard) Mardu Control/ Grixis Control

I have been considering the life lands more and more watching control decks struggle without the lifegain that Sphinx's Revelation provided. And, they are dual-colored lands to boot!

That seens like a solid judge of it, didn't really look at it too closely because I haven't really made a stable decklist yet, more so a list than fuctional deck.

I actually see him being even stronger, seeing as he does not turn on. He is harder to deal with since people ususally do not use much enchantment exile, aside from a rise in Erase, but thats only for white, along with Deicide, and Banishing Light.

It is a good card, but in comparison I feel as though Dig Through Time has more of a control-speed draw spell. Yes, main-phasing a draw spell isn't bad to do, but having the option to do it at the end of turn, let alone you choose the two you are to get, where as you have to set-up Treasure Cruise to make it decent at times, and is much less controlled. But, in respects to looking at Liliana, I think it could be just as good.

I can see that, and am less interested in it looking at it in that perspective. But, at the same time, many things are being compared to what was available to use in the recently-rotated set. Yes, it may not be as powerful as Jace was, but, it is an effect that is similar to his -2. But the only difference is that One is still standard.

It was just an idea that I have been including in the blue-build cotrol decks I have been looking into/building upon. Currently I am testing U/W, and from my knowledge of U/B, He seems to be better supported in 2 color and less decks. Those two were the primary creature focuses, but I was not sure from which to choose. Prognostic Sphinx gives a great scry, and has protection, where as Stormbreath Dragon is a hasty creature that is pro-white, and has a great monstrocity that goes even better with its starting 4/4 body, though gets stoked by Stoke the Flames.

Comparing the two, I think that Liliana Vess actually does a better job of what I was wanting, and does even more than I had hoped for with Jace. She attacks the had, which is very likely to help alongside cards such as Thoughtseize, and she tutors up cards that can be snatched up quickly. But, I also see it fueling their graveyard for any delve card they may be holding, but that may be miniscule in comparison to what they have in hand, and is one less card to have to deal with.

I cannot think of many things that fit into the color scheme that deal well with creatures. Now some that come to mind, but can be a bit awkward are Aetherspouts and Polymorphist's Jest, not to mention In Garruk's Wake is pricey, but aside from that I cannot think of any, unless I am skipping over some. Aether is very conditional, and Poly does not take care of them unless I had something such as Anger of the Gods or Drown in Sorrow to follow up.

Mogis I just recently stumbled upon from research, and I think he has a spot somewhere in the deck, though I would like Keranos, but I feel as though seeing them together may not happen, and it would make me a little leery to go with a consistant enough amount of both with a card such a Deicide floating around.

I was thinking of this card as well, but I must say I do not like it mainboard. It hits too little compared to something that is a mana more and hits anything. But when it does hit, it is one of the better counters to have.

I apologise for my replies, because most of them almost contradicted themselves (and some still may be contradictory) as I wrote them since I was stimulating my thoughts in a way I had not touched upon yet.

Last edited by majormogley (2014-10-14 04:16:56)

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Re: (Standard) Mardu Control/ Grixis Control

Another fun option that didn't come up yet is Whelming Wave which, when combined with the discard you could have at your disposal, would certainly give you some options.  I can openly say, having just played a deck with 4x Thoughtseize and 4x Despise you have a LOT of control over the opponent's plays.  Toss in Liliana Vess and you're going to be screwing them up pretty hard, nevermind opening themselves up to counters and the like.

I would honestly recommend looking at the U/B control builds that Ivan Floch and his teammates were running at the pro-tour and use those as a base-line for you to work from.  You have access to two fetches, but I honestly wouldn't go above 3x of each.  I think the biggest issue will be figuring out how to get life back after using it for Thoughtseize and the fetches. 

I'd also consider running Rakshasa's Secret as a means to ding the opponent's hand... I'm not sold on it myself, but perhaps it is the piece that Waste Not has been lacking.  If nothing else it would give you delve options for either Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time.

Suffice to say, I think there is a competitive Grixis build out there to be made, although I don't know how good it can be until we see the next set (and potentially a new Bolas).

Re: (Standard) Mardu Control/ Grixis Control

Just as I read Whelming Wave, I immediately thought of how its good/bad with Pearl Lake Ancient. Since I have been testing a U/W build of control in paper form, I have been exploring how I can improve it, and I feel like Pearl Lake is rather significant, and  if I were to run Whelming Wave, then I would be able to wipe all of their creatures, and have it still standing. Now the bad side of it is that if they have a Pearl Lake Ancient, then it stays, not to mention a Kiora emblem going at the end of each of their turns. It's good and bad, but I am not sure if where it stands is enough to justify being run, unless it goes alongside Polymorphist's Jest.

But back on topic, that seems like it could play a very nice part in getting rid of a decent amount of their threats. All of the hand disruption available makes it seem like it would be pretty easy to pin them in a corner, where they are in top-deck mode.

I thought of U/B, but seeing how it played kind of made me think otherwise. Yes, it is an alright build, but I saw the matches that it lost to as well. They go very far down in life, a point that is not something that can be dealt with at instant speed on the control's side, and are more likely to get wrecked by something burn, or a stray rhino. The decks that recently did exceedingly well recently did not fully include U/B control, and thus it is quite likely that the other lists will be popping up, thus the reason why I have strayed from it a bit.

There are some synergy involved with delve and discard, but I think I will have a somewhat minor look upon it, since it may aid me win the game, but it will not close it out.

I will probably be working at the grixis for a while, and it is very possible it will not be viable till the next set or two come along.

Tradelist     Wishlist

Re: (Standard) Mardu Control/ Grixis Control

As for the use of Whelming Wave, I was thinking of it as more of a tempo play.  It refills their hand and they have to replay all their small creatures, setting them up for an easy Anger of the Gods while nothing big is on the field.  That and the hand disruption available is pretty solid these days.

I'll be honest, the biggest hit that Grixis took from rotation was the loss of Far // Away.  That card was absolutely nuts.  That and Devour Flesh.  Without those options still at our disposal, it just seems a sub-optimal setup. 

Sad Bolas is sad for it too...

Re: (Standard) Mardu Control/ Grixis Control

I can see it as a great tempo play with non Control match ups, since most people are using Pearl Lake Ancient, of who I have recently started to not like as much as I use to. But none the less, Whelming Wave does nothing against it. Paired with hand disruption though, it is hard to pass up!

Far // Away was quite the card, though I am sad to say I never really saw Grixis control last block. I am hoping that I see it this block though, because one of my friends has also gained interest in the color scheme.

It shall be reborn.

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