Hydra or Counterspell?

Gilder Bairn has the same basic properties as Vorel, but for more mana (and you have to untap it to use it, rather than tap it)

I'm going to see if I can rework this deck to take advantage of that.

I guess I don't see how they don't fit - I mean from a thematic point maybe, but they got counters and i want to double counters. Seems legit.  Also Parallax Tide looks pretty awesome for this too.

The problem with hydras is that they just don't "fit" in my mind. But if it works, it works you know?

Oh dammit though - I can't double counters on the hydra. Protection from blue. Duh. I'll swap it with something else.

Alright, how do you feel about this iteration? Defense, offense, counters, mana and elocutors

See, that's where the hydras came in - they have counters and can be exploited. Also they're relatively cheap to get out, particularly if I'm planning on doubling their counters. I like the idea of an offense better than a defense. I do like War Tax better than Elephant Grass for this deck.

Well, that is the problem with win-cards like the elocutors. It is awkward and things meant to support it are useless without it. That doesn't mean you need to give up, it just means you need to look for synergies, i.e., what also has counters that you can abuse with Vorel? I tried my hand at something with him (http://deckbox.org/sets/375485), though it is still just a rough sketch of what I want to do. Note the proliferate mechanic.

Also note that green and blue are fantastic for card drawing mechanics. The problem right now is that you have a lot of mana and it isn't being used for anything (lots of untapping lands/permanents and manadorks). You basically have to decide how you want to do this - create enough threats that your opponents have to defend against that they can't really deal with the elocutors, or try to go on the defense and creature a bubble that they can't penetrate. Or something else.

I think the other reason for the hydras is that without the Elocutors, Vorel is just a useless mer-dude. I mean, the combo is good, but I'm leery of relying on it too strongly.

I suppose at absolute worse though, I only need to double the counters 3 times to win even if they're at zero so it really doesn't matter that much

I suppose if I'm just putting in better cards I might as well put in Worldy Tutor - it will give this deck a better chance of winning quickly.

But it's standard! (Well, extended now)

I can definitely see the need for some defense, and with all the mana you've can generate, I understand why you chose something with an X manacost. I just think there might be something better out there to keep you alive. Something like Elephant Grass or War Tax.

Honestly the hydras are there just in case I can't get any Elocutors out. Alternate win conditions and all that.  Also I play a lot of 4 person games so I need to have slightly stronger defenses.

Yeah, I was just avoiding buying more of them.  I definitely need the cayatids as well - this deck suffers from poor mana.  If played well (with a good draw) it can end the game in 5 turns though.

Can't go wrong with temples of mystery, especially since they're strictly better than the guildgates.

I like the idea of this deck. Vorel works nicely with the elocutors, and the untap effects actually make it an interesting solution. What sticks out to me are the hydras. Those are beat 'em up cards, when your deck really just wants to hold out till you get the win. Its good to have alternate win conditions, but it is better if you can make them entertwined. I would consider counterspells.