First deck I've made so far. Not really familiar with the terminology that is used here yet. Any advise on what to add or change? I'm planing on doing some tournaments soon so any advise is helpful.
http://deckbox.org/sets/547634

First, congratulations on making a deck and entering the (often intimidating) world of M:tG! Your first deck looks waaaay better than my first deck.

What kind of tournaments? Or rather, what kind of players are you expecting to face at said tournaments? As stated in the Art of War, if you don't know your opponents, your chances of survival are 50% at best.

Have you played with the deck to see how well it does? Play testing is the best mark of success. If your deck does well against the types of decks you will face in a tournament, then there you have it. If you need opponents, try looking around here for online opponents, but these may play quite differently than the folks at the tournament(s) you are going to.

Looking at your deck, I have a few questions. You don't have much for artifact/enchantment control. This is fine if you don't expect players you face to field many of them, but could cost you if they do and you're left trying to handle it with only two Detention Spheres.

Second question is win condition. This is something every deck needs. Looking at the deck, it seems that your goal is to remove their creatures and then kill them off with smallish creatures (aided by a few buffs). You have some nice options available for a little health gain when necessary, and I appreciate that your mana costs are low- a common mistake for new players is to add lots of cool spells and disregard mana cost. What happens to your deck against burn decks (usually red decks with lots of spells that do direct damage), or other decks that have few creatures?

Last question is consistency. You only have two cards with four copies in the deck (excluding lands). Consistency could be a problem. Depending on your budget (I personally can't afford to go buying another three copies of Frontline Medic, for instance), I would think about this.

Lastly, let me just say that any advice you get from me (or anyone else online) is subject to doubt. We don't know your opponents, so what we say may be completely invalid. If the deck performs well in the environment you're in, then you shouldn't ask for general advice and instead focus on specific questions ("is this card better than this other card" type stuff). I should also point out that although my first and second questions above point at possible holes, no deck can handle every possible opponent- there are too many types of decks out there. Don't water down your deck too much in attempts to defeat opponent you may never have to face.

Thanks for the response and amazing info. I mostly plan on going to som local fnm at the comic store or random tournaments held at those venues. So I have no clue as to who I will face. I have tested the deck a lot. Mostly with my wife that has an old aggressive deck R/B. and I have tested it against one of my friends decks. His deck forced you discard a lot (not sure that is the burn deck you mentioned) but I won a few he won a few just depended on my draw. I did play. On picking up a few frontline medics and maybe more fabled heroes? But outside of that I don't know what else to add. And as far as artifact and enhancement control I'm not even sure how to deal with that and what I'd trade out for more of that. Also how did my side deck look?

Also on win conditions. Id like to able to buff up the heroics quick enough to take them out as quick as possible. I know I'd need more heroic guys for this.

Local FNM varies greatly between play groups. Some are extremely competitive and focus entirely on quick kills, while others are more about having fun, and still others are all multiplayer instead of duels.

You need to discover what is normal for the FNM group you will be playing in. You can simply play at one and see how you fare, or you can go and watch. In either case, here are the things to look for:
Do players only play standard, or do they play pauper, or EDH, or something else? Do they rotate between different formats on different weeks? (Here is a good page to reference.)
How many turns do games normally last? Short games indicate aggressive players trying to win. If games last thirty turns, you're looking more at games just for fun. If it is all over the board, then you have tons of variations between different decks.
How many players are there? Large groups will mean more variation in who attends on any given week and what decks you face.

Once you know what to expect, you can design your deck(s) around what they are doing. If everybody there is just out to have fun, and you build a super-fast, kill-everybody-in-three-turns deck, then you will win a lot of games and no one (yourself included) will have much fun. If they have super fast decks and yours takes twenty turns, you will lose a lot of games and won't have much fun. If they play pauper every other week and you show up with a standard deck, they won't even let you play in the tournament (though some players may play a side game or two with you).

If they play a style you don't like (or can't afford), you can still make friends and play games outside of FNM.

Artifact/enchantment protection is perfect for a sideboard. If you expect most decks to play them, you include stuff like disenchant in the deck. Otherwise, you put four to six cards in your sideboard that help control them, and rotate them in if your particular opponent uses them.

Which is what a sideboard should be. Cards like Gainsay are usually too situational to be useful; unless there are a great deal of players using blue, and you often wish you could counter their spells because you can't handle them any other way, I wouldn't include it in a sideboard, and instead put in something else. As a rule of thumb, sideboards should help you deal with something your deck is weak against. Should you need more space in the sideboard, remove cards that are too situational. If you need more space, remove cards that do similar things to cards already in your deck, like Arrest.

Other thoughts... Dryad Militant is a good card against certain decks, but Soldier of the Pantheon is probably more useful against more decks. If you can afford it, put the Dryads into your sideboard and put in more Pantheons. If you face a deck using Revive or flashback cards, you can swap the Dryad back into the Pantheon's place. If you can't afford it (which I couldn't), then you probably want to take the Pantheon out and use that card slot for something else, perhaps Favored Hoplite or another 1-cost creature that fits your theme.

If your goal is to trigger Heroic, I don't think Fortify and Brave the Elements count, as they are global effects, not targeted ones. While those are both good cards, you may look for something to trigger Heroic abilities instead. Likewise, Soulmender isn't a bad drop, as it can give you some health or block or attack, making it versatile, but it isn't heroic.Elixir of Immortality seems a little out of place in this deck. If your format allows it, I would look at cards with storm or buyback, as they work well with heroic.

Your largest creature is 3/3. You may wish to put in two cards that are larger, like a 5/5 flier. Blue and White both have many creatures that fit the bill. These creatures can become a secondary win condition if you face an opponent who can deal with your ground creatures or your enchantments. They will of course require more mana to play, but having two in the deck means you are unlikely to draw them both early on before you reach the mana necessary, while still likely to draw one in a prolonged game. Putting in Gift of Orzhova can also help with this, and I see it is in your sideboard. I would consider swapping it into the main deck.

Let me give you some common terms and definitions to help you feel a bit more comfortable. You may already know some of these.
Mill decks focus on killing you by removing cards from your library. Sometimes this is direct (Balustrade Spy), and sometimes they just make you draw so many cards that you run out of cards to draw.
Discard decks force you to discard, and are a form of control deck. There are card combos that trigger when opponents discard (Confessor), but other discard decks force you to discard merely to keep you from playing cards.
Burn decks do direct damage to opponents or creatures. A burn deck contains many cards that perform a function similar to Lightning Bolt, and many burn decks contain cards that do damage to all creatures and/or all players (like Tremor).
Token decks are a more recent development, and focus on creating lots of expendable creatures (Acorn Harvest). These decks win by overwhelming their opponents or by making those tokens large with global buffs (Overrun)
Control decks attempt to control everything their opponent does. They counter spells, remove permanents, destroy lands, and/or bounce (Unsummon).
RDW means "Red Deck Wins," and is a common phrase because red decks can get overpowered.
Tribal decks focus around a specific creature subtype (Knight Exemplar). Common tribals are elves, knights, goblins, vampires, etc.
CMC, or MC, is converted mana cost or mana cost.
Boros is red and white. There are nicknames attached to almost any color combination. Why M:tG players create more terms to know is beyond me, but we are quite fond of our own little made-up language.

These are examples. There are many decks that are named for what they do. For example, life drain decks steal life from opponents and gain that much life, such as Corrupt, and reanimation decks continually bring creatures (or sometimes other spells) back from the graveyard. These will be fairly obvious to you over time as you become familiar with what is possible. Other decks are named for combos they use, like Juck Turtle's Legion of Invulnerability (named for its use of Assemble the Legion). You'll get to know the names of cards over time, though if you are like me you'll still frequently look up decks named after cards because there are simply so many cards and card combos.

Sorry this is so long. Hopefully it is useful information.

Thanks for the reply! I will find out this Friday what the competition is like. I'm going to go down to the comic book store then and buy a deck builder and either some booster packs or the rest of the cards to finish out this deck. I updated the deck with new enchantments and more creatures and removed some.

Added more soldier of the pantheon and added one of each of these Battlewise Hoplite, Fabled Hero, Frontline Medic, Dauntless Onslaught and added 2x Sundering Growth on my sideboard to replace the gainsay. Aslo moved Dryad Militant to my side deck instead of Gift of Orzhova. Then I added 2x Heliod, God of the Sun for a 5/6 creature, actually im not too sure shes a good add because of the non creature part. No idea how that really works. Just let me know if any of this will work. http://deckbox.org/sets/547634

Thanks a lot for the info on the different types of decks was having trouble locating one place to find out what they all meant.

Thanks again for all the help!

Just to briefly chime in on the most current build you have put forth. This is actually a surprisingly consistent looking deck given your newness to the game (so good work there), but as a suggestion, since you're going the heroic route, why not slide in at least a pair of Phalanx Leaders over Soulmender? They provide two devotion to white to help get Heliod into creature form, and they also can provide a pump for the entire team through the heroic triggers.

Two other cards to pick up for this build are Precinct Captain (you want 4x of them) and Spear of Heliod (two will suffice).

Overall just try to soak things in and don't be afraid to ask questions when you're observing (although if it's a tournament, such as FNM, people will be reluctant to explain until after a game or match is over). If there's one thing that can be said it's that the people who play this game don't just like it, they love it, and an excuse to explain their thinking in putting a deck together, making a certain play, or whatever, well, what more could they ask for?

what would i get rid of for the Precinct Captain and Spear of Heliod?

Dorynnos wrote:what would i get rid of for the Precinct Captain and Spear of Heliod?

As you get into the game, you should critically consider questions exactly like the one you have asked. Evaluate your deck, and see if it is weak in any one area. If the new card doesn't plug a hole, but you still like it, then you need to decide if it is better or worse than another card already in the deck which fulfills the same function.

Consider Spear of Heliod. This is creature removal. It is reusable, making it superior to many of the creature removal options you already have in your deck. Unlike Banisher Priest, the creature is destroyed- this means it won't come back without your opponent using a revive card, unlike those removed by the Priest. However, cards that are indestructible cannot be destroyed, and cards with regenerate may survive the Spear, meaning the Priest can at least temporarily remove cards that the Spear cannot. Additionally, the Spear can only take out a creature that damages you, while the Priest can remove any enemy creature. This is important if the creature would kill you when it deals damage, or if you want it removed because of its abilities but it never does damage to you directly. Further, the Priest is a creature that can block, or attack and actually do damage to your opponent. But the Spear also gives a global buff to all your creatures. But the Priest isn't legendary, so you can have two out at once. But you shouldn't need two Spears at once. But then, the Spear requires you to keep mana available during your opponent's turn.

Therefore, while the Priest and Spear would both be in your deck primarily for their ability to remove creatures, they do not operate the same, and both have pros and cons. Of course, you can compare the Spear to other cards in the deck as well, going through the same analytical process.

Looking at your deck, I'm not sure what I would remove to add Spear of Heliod and Precinct Captain. Honestly, I'm not convinced the Captain needs to be added at all, nor that the deck would be horrible without the Spear. This is what separates Magic players- the ability to correctly build a deck. Many MtG players can handle a good deck (if they understand how it should operate), but building a deck, that is an art form. What makes sense to me won't make sense to other experienced players, and ultimately nobody is really right or wrong until proven thus in combat.

(To clarify, I'm not saying TyWooOneTime's suggestion for the Captain and Spear are bad. Merely that I personally wouldn't put the Captain in.)

Well then I think with the added creatures from earlier I'm going to take the 2 spear of the heliod instead of the 2 banisher priest.

I would suggest leaving Banisher Priest alone and adding Precinct Captain and Spear of Heliod in place of Indestructibility, Ordeal of Thassa and Ordeal of Heliod. While I can certainly see the argument being made for these enchantments as heroic triggers, the Ordeals will under-perform for you in constructed settings time and time again. Further, Indestructibility is great if you get it to stick, but odds are the opponent will see you do it once and from that point on will just wait until you tap four to try and cast it, removing the target creature in response (and you'll note none of the creatures are all that large to start off with).

While Xan offers a decent rationale for Spear, he's missing the most important part of the card, that it provides an anthem effect to pump all of your creatures. Sure, you're working off the heroic triggers, but if you can pump the whole team for three, isn't that worth it?

As for Precinct Captain its strengths here are almost too numerous to count. One, it's a 2/2 first strike for two white, putting it right on curve but giving it an ability that will allow it to win in combat against practically every one of its two-drop peers. Two, its double white casting cost will add to your devotion for the sake of getting Heliod online (into creature mode). Three, if left alone, it can actually create an army of its own, with it creating tokens each time it hits the opponent - toss Spear (or a single triggered Phalanx Leader) into the mix and you're talking about it spitting out 2/2 soldiers for free. Four, when used in multiples, they provide a SOLID defensive presence through their first strike. Five, they will often draw removal spells your opponents could otherwise hold for a target more important to your plan (see Fabled Hero). The list continues...

More generally, I know that you're going with the U/W scheme, and it's certainly feasible to go that route, but I've seen a lot more people having success with W/R given the access you get to Akroan Crusader, Anax and Cymede, and the more numerous red pump spells. Alternately, you should look for instances where you can get multiple heroic triggers - in blue the two that come to mind are Triton Tactics and Hidden Strings (which actually provides two triggers and then can be cipher cast for two more each time).

I agree that removing the Ordeals is a good idea. In this deck, they won't last as long before you have to sacrifice them (since your heroic creatures put down their own 1/1 counters).

I actually forgot Precinct Captain had first strike. :/ It is a good card, and you can certainly put it in. Doesn't really add to the deck's theme though.

If you're sitting there with Phalanx Leader in play and want to maximize his heroic effect, it seems like a solid no brainer to me. Much less if you're looking for a solid target for the other half of Dauntless Onslaught, Triton Tactics, or even the recipient of Anax and Cymede's heroic trigger if you were to go W/R rather than U/W... but it's up to you if you were to put it in. All I know is that it alone can warrant a Supreme Verdict, making it easier to play around sweepers.

ok... http://deckbox.org/sets/547634 how is that. removed Ordeals and the Indestructibility put the Banisher Priest back in and added the Precinct Captain added more Fabled Hero's as well. now i have 63 cards and i cant fit the the Triton Tactics in and i dont know what to take out to make it 60. I had already added the Phalanx Leader before yalls post so I have that in there as well already

The main reason I'm going with U/W is because i have no red lands and hardly any red creatures. Can only play what i have available to me. Just started playing this about 2 weeks ago and have only have this deck for a little over half of that. Maybe once i get more cards i may switch to a R/W but at the moment i cant unless i buy all red instead of all of these whites that are in this deck.

It's not terrible, but I don't know that it even warrants that much of a blue splash. You can keep the guildgates and Hallowed Fountain for Detention Sphere but you could just as easily run Dryad Militant or Favored Hoplite in place of Battlewise Hoplite.

Alternately, you can add some blue to the mix. I'm thinking Hopeful Eidolon could go in favor of Aqueous Form. It'll give you scry, unblockable, and much cheaper heroic triggers. Again, the others to shoot for are Triton Tactics and/or Hidden Strings. In this case, I would likely drop the Frontline Medics, probably lower the count of Dauntless Onslaught to 3x, and perhaps lower the count of Pacifism or remove it entirely.

If it hasn't been said yet, it's normally a good idea to playtest before going out and picking up all these cards, ensuring you're not wasting money. You can do this with any spare cards and some paper that you slide into the sleeves with the cards. The paper will have what the card is supposed to be, that way, you can get some casual games in and see what performs well and where the deck comes up short - as we can sit here and debate card choices all day, but in the end, if it doesn't play smoothly, well, it hasn't been worth it.

Good point, i just need to play test these builds and see what happens. I'll get back with yall when i find out the results. Thanks for all the input!

You can also play test online, at the link in my first post. :)

http://deckbox.org/sets/547634 I think that might go better together. Took legendaries and the bestow guys. Tell me what y'all think

I know I didn't change the sideboard I can't at the moment.

You'll likely want Brave the Elements in some number, but otherwise it doesn't look too bad. I would keep in mind that tinkering with your creature counts will be helpful (going to 3x rather than 4x so as to take something up or down... y'know).

http://deckbox.org/sets/547634. Ok so I don't know who do I remove. Just need to get rid of one creature to make it 60 cards. Who do I remove.

At this point you're so close to a mono white deck why even keep the blue?

True there are mostly white cards in the deck but I'm keeping the Blue in it because of the multicolored cards and now the blue instant and sorcery. I guess I could get rid of the islands for more gates or I could get some shock lands but I thought I might be better to stick with the regular lands. Maybe I have too many islands? But again I'm still new at this.

You're mana ratio is way off for the amount of blue you're running. A set of shocks and a couple gates should do it... maybe 1 island.

The thing though is this type of deck gains so much more from red that blue. Boros charm, reckoners, and red also has the temples. Heliod would work in here too and so would his spear.

So witch would be better and why? W/R or Mono White, and what is the weak point of the W/U?

I'll address the weakness of blue white first. First off, no temples, so you're not able to smooth your draws and fix your mana at the same time. Gates just tempo you with no benefit. It also lacks synergy as an aggro deck. You really want removal that can double as damage dealers to help burn out your opponent. Things like Boros charm or lightning strike can help you trade better or deal enough damage to close out the game. And as far as exile removal goes chained to the rocks is leaps and bounds better for an aggro deck than detention sphere.

As far as Wr over Rw it just depends on where you're at.

The Rw version is usually more about straight aggro/burn fanatic of mogis and things like ash zealot help you come in pretty fast while reselient threats like the hammer of purphoros and chandra's phoenix can keep producing threats even when you run out of steam.

Wr is more resilient it usually works with putting some tokens in play with precinct captain and tops out around heliod or sometimes even elspeth depending on the deck. With god's willing and brave the elements help you get damage through while protecting your creatures at the same time. Red provides the same function in this deck with things like boros charm some even run an aurelia's fury.

Look at MTG analytics http://mtganalytics.net/

RW/WR are the top 3/4 decks respectively. They've been tested and tested and proved to be the best of the best aggro decks atm. You can try to reinvent the wheel so to speak, but these decks just have better reach than blue splashing can provide.

Assuming you want to be like everybody else. Which don't get me wrong, it is fine if you are trying to win tournaments- you have to go with what wins the most.

Personally, winning isn't why I play the game. Copying another person's deck, however amazing their deck may be and however bad my own is, just isn't fun for me. If you want a top tier deck that will perform spectacularly, you should certainly go with some combo of red and white.

I don't like using other peoples wheels because I don't want to appear to be the same as everyone else on the road. I want to make my own wheels at home because I want to be original. I don't care if they fall apart on the highway and aren't safe to drive on. I'm unique.

Sorry to be crass, but that argument is old and completely invalid. We play a competitive game you can't say you don't play to win. You're playing _against_ an opponent with the sole purpose to be victorious. You can have fun at any competition. Example: to say that professional sports players don't enjoy their job wouldn't be true they're just playing at a higher level than the highschool kids who also enjoy it. There's more on the line but they love what they do.

No magic player is going to make the millions that a pro player does, but to say that we can't be competitive and have fun is a fallacy.

Personally, I don't want to play a bad deck anymore than I'd want to drive on faulty wheels. It's a matter of min/maxing your potential. I do it in every game. You have to get the right amount of stats in wow to do raids and there are optimal boss fighting strategies. anyone can copy a deck or a character build, but you have to understand how to play it in order for it to perform at the optimal level.

Going to look into this a little further, might remake the deck altogether.

"I'm playing a competitive game and trying to win, and you are playing the same game, so you are also playing a competitive game and trying to win." Can you see the fallacy here? Please don't press your personality, likes, and dislikes on me.

For me, the joy of Magic is not in winning. Of course I enjoy winning. But the real joy, for me, is in creating. I build my own deck, play it myself, and I improvise with it in-game. I don't create things in a vacuum, and of course I see what other people are doing to get ideas. But at the end of the day, the deck is something I put together, and it is this process of creation from which I derive my enjoyment. Just like all the musicians out there playing music not because it pays the best, or because they are the best, but simply because they like doing it.

Such joy is what makes Minecraft a great game. The only thing Minecraft does well is allow players to create. There are better survival games, better action games, better crafting games, better looking games, even games that run smoother. Minecraft players enjoy creating something, and that is why they play Minecraft.

Not everyone enjoys creating things, or even creating things in the same way. Just because you enjoy the competition and winning for their own sakes doesn't mean I do, and just because I enjoy the creation doesn't mean you do.

Now let's set aside the ridiculousness and not turn this into a flaming thread. You have an argument with me, send me an email and bash against me all you want. Let this thread be about helping Dorynnos with his deck, regardless of the direction he chooses to take it.

Hey you started it :p

You can create whatever you want, but when someone suggests that a new player look at the best decks out there and to test them out don't thumb your nose at it. There are better ways to add objective commentary to it than a snarky "you can be a robot if you want" type comment. Casual players like yourself and this new player need to realize that it's not wrong to try to be the best player you can be and trying to be successful at the game, at more than just the kitchen table or within your group of friends, isn't a crime.

BTW, I play minecraft too and terraria, I love sandbox games. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Alright guys, calm down... there really isn't a debate to be had here...

Johnny vs. Spike... it's quite alright to be a little bit of both.

The simple point I like to take away is that you can look at the top builds to learn from them. You don't have to take their lists card-for-card (unless you really want to), but there's a lot to be learned from the more polished, more competitive players. To create a deck is certainly fun, it's the biggest challenge I enjoy in the game, BUT, it's also silly to "create" a sub-optimal version of the same deck if it's already out there.

So, Dorynnos, there's a LOT that's been tossed at you in a very short period of time. That being said, you really have four options for the deck:

1) Remain U/W and try some of the suggestions to see how it goes. This might not perform as well as you would like in a competitive environment, but if blue really has the feel for what you like, then run with it. Figure out what under-performs, find solutions, and figure out a new way to take the deck.

2) Go mono-white. This will open up some space for many of the cards suggested and it has the potential to be a bit more successful competitively (I'd argue its upside is a bit higher). But, you'll run the risk of getting bored with the deck quickly as it'll have pretty much the same lines of play every game. Further, you lose out on some of the most enjoyable heroic trigger spells.

3) Switch gears entirely to R/W. This probably has the highest upside of any of the heroic decks and I've actually seen some home-brews at my LGS do relatively well following this strategy. It opens you to a lot more quality removal (see Chained to the Rocks or ANY burn spell) and even some added fun with Akroan Crusader and Anax and Cymede (both of whom are big fans of Phalanx Leader). You can also slide in fun heroic triggers ranging from Titan's Strength to Coordinated Assault to Dynacharge and Weapon Surge. So there are certainly a lot of ways to run with this deck.

4) Go completely outside the box and try to put all the comments made here together into ONE deck. If you like U/W, but R has the best combo pieces for you, why not go U/W/R and try to fit everything in? In fact, here's an American Heroic deck I tossed together on paper a few weeks ago that I've yet to even sleeve up to try. http://deckbox.org/sets/523862 To be honest, the build actually looks like a fair bit of fun and could probably be built without dropping a fortune on the lands if you're just wanting to dink around.

I hope the bit of a squabble between elpablo and Xan doesn't turn you off or scare you away from asking for more advice. You have to keep in mind that there are different types of players in the game, some who are more focused on trying to be competitive and win (elpablo) who follow the "Spike" archetype, and those who are more focused on being creative in their path to victory (Xan) who follow the "Johnny" archetype. Don't stress their debate, just have some fun and, with any luck, some of the suggestions we've offered here will have given you some ideas, taught you something, or otherwise will help you have fun.

Good luck!