HikingStick wrote:

I understand what you are saying about the Devils, but for aggro, isn't 4 damage T1 a real head start?

4 damage isn't what it used to be in an aggro deck.  With the life gain available today, I just can't see that being a big deal, Seems to me a turn 2 burning tree, into a rancor strom kirk noble played on turn 1, would be about the same amount of damage in the same amount of turns. 

The scavenge shenanigans that ty mention were tried a little.  You won't see the devil in very many decks at all.

Today, i see this line of play happening.  You turn one vex, turn 2 and 3 are various creatures.  Their turn 2 and 3 are scavenging ooze followed by eating your vexing devil on turn 3 gaining life and blocking/killing one of your dues then eating the due they killed and gaining more life.

Well, to put things in perspective I am one of the older players.  I remember when Armageddon and Serra angel where the wombo combo.  People could play mox's and duel lands were in every deck.  It was the best of times, It was the worst of times tongue

I find that it's bullshit to sweep a FNM due to deckbuild that's more or less a copy of a current top performer.

This rarely happens due to net decking.  You still have to be a competent player.  My store is very competitive, 30+ people, tier 1 decks, rogue tier 2 decks. It runs the gambit, I don't know how your store is, but if it's even half as competitive as mine then "sweeping" an FNM with a tournament deck isn't very likely at all. In fact playing JUND I've never made 1st place, 2nd once, 3-4 a few, 6-8 a few more times and when we go six rounds for a top 12 pay out , I've done that a couple times.

My overall goal is to make something new, that nobody's expecting. I haven't even tapped into the library of artifacts that are out there, i don't even know if there's anything that would benifit this deck other than pithing needles to smack down the retarded planeswalkers.

I can respect wanting to brew your own build, it's fun and it's part of the game, but as a married father of 4, I don't have time to do the testing that's necessary to brew my own build.  You literally need dozens of test matches or more to make sure your card choices are valid against the other tier 1 decks out there.  If you can't beat american and Jund right now then your deck probably won't fair very well.  Netdecking is a good way to find decks and save yourself some time.  Ultimately once you start evaluating why they make the choices in the decks and how everything plays in the meta, the deck starts to be come inevitable, as if there isn't another way for the deck to play and evolve.  I say let the deck doctors do their work, and as long as we understand the methods behind their madness then we shouldn't feel bad about emulating their wisdom.  That's not to say you can' slap something together for fun, but we shouldn't expect to do better than the pros at constructing competitive decks.

I would say, if you want to brew, do it on the side while you play a more competitive deck until your sure your brew is worthy.  A friend and I try this every now and then.  You really need someone to help you test and work out the kinks before you take it to a tournament.

Tutoring - Okay, here's how it goes.  Statistically, tutoring is very effective you're 100% like to get the card you tutor for at a substantial cost of 4 mana.  This severely hurts your tempo, at a 4 mana sorcery, you have to play it on your turn and the advantage for finding the card quickly becomes nullified by your tempo loss.   This huge investment is such a draw back that it's not worth it.  Let me try to explain.

Lets say you curve out in your original build.

Starting hand, crawler, ghoul, reaver, tutor, 3 lands, you draw into the lands and the blockade the rest of the turns.

Turn 1: Grave Crawler
Turn 2: butcher ghoul
Turn 3: Corpse blockade
Turn 4: Tutor - for mikaus
Turn 5: Liliana's Reaver
Turn 6: Mikaeus

That's great, you curved out, but remember zombies are low costed and aggressively positioned for a reason.  Assuming you got to attack and do damage you're looking at, maybe 20 damage on turn 6 if you're opponent just plays land every turn and does nothing. In this meta that's way too slow for just combat damage, you need something to help go over the top, and you can't realistically expect to get to do that much combat damage with out resistance. On your turn 4 you sunk 4 mana into tutoring basically making mikaeus cost 10 instead of 6.  A real opponent is going to be playing threats of their own, or removing your threats, and sinking 10 mana into a card that is not going to win the game is bad math. As an aggro deck you need to be able to effectively deal with their threats, circumvent them or, remove them.  The bonus to zombies is they're decently resilient to removal.  Tutoring does none of this for you, and it's inconsistent, you're not always going to draw the spell, and if you do always get it then it's a dead card for minimum 4 turns at which you do nothing for a turn while you search your library. On turn 4, jund can be playing a thragtusk , on turn 4 American can be slamming verdict, both of these plays impact the board in a huge way while tutoring does nothing to the board and provides incremental card advantage at a huge cost (sorcery speed too).  Putting consistent and efficient draw card utility in is the best thing for a long game (the long game is not where you want to be, zombies are short game, aggro decks).  Underworld connections, sign in blood, the grandaddy of drawing himself Griselbrand (expensive but effective), these are the cards you need to be looking at to increase your card advantage and be consistent if you really feel like you need it.  Really and truly decks like the one you're attempting to build can get away with a couple sign in blood, but really need to muligan aggressively to get the starting hands you desire. I'd wager you haven't done enough testing with tutor to truly understand how much it can hurt your decks tempo.

1. The deck has the tendency to either give you a strong win, followed by 2 losses by either being manascrewed or by having an over abundance of land.
2. Zombie Apocalypse isn't seeing play as much as I would have thought. I'm finding myself holding it as last card in hand more times than playing it.
3. I'm getting beat over the head by the red card that does damage and exiles the card instead of putting it to graveyard, therefore loosing my undying cards to exile.
4. i've learned that #3 and Planeswalkers are this deck's kryptonite so to speak as i have nothing other than corrupt to deal with the walkers, Normally tutored for.

You pointed these issues out yourself in your first post, and a lot of these can be solved by simply splashing another color, but I'll try to steer away from that in this post.

1 and 2. You're still building an aggro deck  (zombies are aggro you just have to deal with that)  and you shouldn't be topping out at more than 4 (maybe 5) cmc to be consistent.  Card's like zombie apoc and mikaeus are to expensive and slow to do what you need to do.  Cut the lands to 21-22 and cut these expensive cards.  A couple mutavaults might be good here.

3. Nothing to do about Pillar, it just eats zombies.  Terminus is bad for you too. If you see decks running these you can expect them to side in more graveyard hate, rest in peace kills you too.  Also, scavenging ooze is big and can still eat your undying guys before they return from the yard.  IE: geralf dies, undying trigger goes on the stack, activate scavenging ooze targeting your undying guy in the yard, scavenging goes off first, undying fizzles.  Graveyard decks have really had their time and you might "surprise" some people by running one but don't expect to win 1st place.

4. black has no direct removal for walkers.  the best you can do is something that does direct damage to the player and redirect it to the walker.  Lifebane might help and other evasive creatures, but they are pretty much guaranteed an activation of their walker.  You can try to sideboard some discard cards like appetite for brains or duress. Pithing needle helps against them too.

You need more variety in your creature base.  Blood throne vampire comboes well with the zombies, blood artist, and I would also suggest a set of lifebane zombies. They will be good against decks like naya and jund.  Vampire nighthawks's wouldn't be bad either for now. Butcher ghoul is really aweful, it's a 2 mana 1/1, get rid of this guy.  Get the blood artist and the sac vampire.  You need lifegain,  gift of the orzhov could be money in this deck. Really without adding another color your options become limited.  If you do want to go big black, griselbrand is the father of lifegain and drawing. If you do this you could try the enchant combo (janky, but dangerous).  Speaking of drawing, and card advantage, some sign in blood main deck is what you need, cut the totors, you lose so much tempo and in an aggro deck you might as well be handing them the game if you spend a turn doing nothing.  A 2 mana investment for 2 cards out of your deck is pretty decent. If you think you might be in a long game, you can side something like underworld connections.   You need ways to pump your creatures, Liliana of the dark realms can help you here.  She thins your deck and can provide serious pumpage to your dudes.  The gift of orzhov is great to since it gives evasion.

Either way good luck.

also, can't stress this enough. Tutoring is bad.  Sure it allows you to get a card, but you're paying 4 extra to basically draw a card.  There are more efficient ways to get card advantage.

Sorry if it came off that way, but there have been decks in the past that are using the core mechanic you're trying to build on and did it successfully.  There's no reason not to analyze their contribution to the type of deck you're trying to build, rather than reinvent the wheel all by yourself.  You can simply modify and clean it up based on what's available in the current standard card pool. The sac outlet is important to get the most out of the zombies.  Also, white is another color to splash.  Playing mono precludes a lot of good cards that are available to you for no reason other than sticking to a theme.

Corpse blockade is a pretty terrible sac outlet to get value from the zombies.  Cartel aristocrats combine with blood artist can get damage across and provide blocking much better than the blockade.  The protection the aristocrats gets is also valuable when resisting removal.  You could also run a black green version of the deck listed using varolz and get value from the yard and his regeneration ability.

Adding another color gives you access to much better cards than black alone can provide. Your build really needs a red, white, green splash to be competitively viable. 

The suggestions that psrex added turns the deck towards the "rock".  It's a generally black core with a splash of green for life gain.  It focuses on controlling the board and gaining incremental card advantage.  It's also been doing really well. However, the cards are different than what you're currently representing with your zombie deck. 

http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments … _standard/
http://roxiecards.com/rocking-the-scg-invitational/

If you stick with the zombies it's important to realize you're playing an aggro deck and something like blood artist can help close the game and put your opponent out of reach of your life total all at the same time.

the reason why people favor the noble is he can't be blocked by humans which is a relevant ability in the current meta. Plus once he comes online he can get out of hand pretty quick.

devil is a lightning bolt for 4 which is okay, but he's never going to stick on the field.  which makes him about useless in an aggro deck.

The thing with zombies is to be really good you need a sac outlet.  Take  look at this RB variant.

http://deckstats.net/decks/2995/10047-b … zombies/en

4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Rakdos Guildgate
8 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Blood Artist
3 Hellrider
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Searing Spear
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Tragic Slip
2 Dreadbore

This is a good starting place I think.  there was a card released in m14 that I think might help this deck suprise a lot of people, that's burning earth.  You can drop all the guild gates and make some modifications.  Look at the revised list below.  (just pulling this off the top of my head)

3 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
10 Swamp
5 Mountain
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Blood Artist
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Burning Earth
4 Searing Spear
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Tragic Slip
1 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore

You gain so much by adding another color.  That mono just isn't the way to go, and in this deck you can cast burning earth and not be penalized too much.  The sac outlet of blood artist and falkenwrath provide a wonderful synergy and burning earth is deadly against a lot of decks right now.

If you're not married to the zombies there are lots of other types of decks to try.  Look at the standard decklists on SCG.  You will see  large variety of options.
http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/decklists/

I'm not saying your mono deck can't do well, at an FNM, you have good "stuff" in the deck, but to sweep in and take people by surprise is another mater all together.

507

(22 replies, posted in Decks and Deckbuilding)

well, i didn't mean load the deck with counter spells.  smile

A typical control deck now days will only run a handful maybe 5-6 tops.  They just have lots of draw and dig spells so they can get to them when they need them. 

If you want to go midrange with your deck, then I wouldn't run more than a couple  counters.  Spell rupture seems fine in the deck.  The problem is there's just not a lot of options for you in green/blue for hexproof.  You need to race them it seems like.

There's a magic "m" button that puts "[mtg][/mtg]" around a word or set of words, if it matches the exact name of a magic card it will do the pop up for the card/link.

A lot of new players mention budgets and I get it, I'm married with 4 kids.  But if you want to improve your deck then you need the cards that will do that.  You can draft and do limited events while you trade and work on a deck you want.  You can buy packs when you don't know what you want and then trade if you pull anything good.  Once you build up some inventory and are able to trade for stuff, a $10 card becomes nothing.  I traded for a archangel of thune and a couple lifebane zombies the other day, about $60. 

Limited is probably the way to go for you.  see if your LGS does $10 drafts... those are fun and manageable.  It also depends on your local scene,  if your FNMs are competitive like mine (30+ people, practicing for PTQs, opens and IQs, ) then you'll have a really hard and miserable time.  On the flip side you can learn a lot from these players and if you make friends with them they might let you borrow a competitive deck to play while you build your collection.

There are cards that you can include in decks to cover your bases, but in general you need to stick to a "plan" branching out into control when your deck isn't a control deck will water down your concept.  That's not to say you can have some control cards, izzet charm does a lot of stuff. Control isn't all about counter magic, but that's part of it.

509

(22 replies, posted in Decks and Deckbuilding)

If you go BUG (black blue green) then duskmantle seer is a good option for card advantage/flying at the 4 drop slot.  Blue and green by itself don't have a lot to stop geist of saint traft.  You need an "edict" effect, IE: target player sacs a creature, or something like cyclonic rift (overloaded) that bounces everything but doesn't target, BUG has options, gaze of granite, barter in blood, mutilate.

Sigarda is the same, she's just flying and beefy.  You just have to go bigger or since your in blue... counter them before they hit the board.

izzet can be a what they call a tier 2 deck.  Generally cheaper and not as effective as the top decks but built properly can give them a run for their money.  They're generally "meta" decks as well, meaning they can be built to beat popular decks at a given time, but generally aren't great by themselves.   That being said, you could use some general deck building tips. 

To get ready for an FNM test run you need to try the following.

Izzet is generally going to play like a control/midrange deck.  They're going to play few creatures, and try to protect them to win, or play alternate win conditions like burn and try to control the board.   You need to decide if you're going to keep the white.  Most RUW decks (red blue white, american) play like control decks and play just a few win conditions then protect those win conditions.  There is a midrange version you can play too.

Lands - more of them, better ones.  If you don't want to invest in the check lands (sulfur falls, clifftop retreat, glacial fortress), you should at least try to invest in the shock lands, they'll be standard leagal for the next year. Hallowed Fountain, Sacred Foundry, Steam Vents, also you need more, a control/midrange deck will run 24 lands minimum, usually 25-ish, depending.  Gates can be used, but they hurt your tempo.  See the following example.

land drops with check lands, and available mana.

Turn 1:shock land, 1 available (possible 2 damage if needed to play untapped)
Turn 2:check land, 2 available
Turn 3:check land, 3 available
turn 4:basic island, 4 available

You could have cast 10 mana worth of spells assuming you had a 1 drop and spells to cast on subsequent turns.

Now with gates.

Turn 1: Shock land, 1 available
Turn 2: Gate, 1 available (gate comes into play tapped)
Turn 3: Gate, 2 available (gate comes into play tapped)
Turn 4: Basic Island, 4 available.

You could have only cast 8 mana worth of spells, if your opponent cast a farseak or ramped with an elf, your down 2-4 mana depending on their line of play.  A very bad position for a control deck to be in.

Spells - are you control or burn?  are you control or midrange?  Control decks use board wipes to help stabilize and keep your opponents threats of the board, mizzium mortars, supreme verdict, ratchet bomb, bonfire of the damned, Cyclonic Rift. You also need to be able to draw, Think Twice, Divination, Auger of Bolas,Azorius Charm, Sphinx's Revelation (bread and butter for a lot of control decks), you need spot removal too, that's instant or provides additional effects or both, Izzet Charm, Azorius Charm, Searing Spear, Pillar of Flame, Detention Sphere, Also Turn/Burn is a must in any deck with red and blue. You need at least a couple counter spells like dissipateand syncopate, they have an exile component that is important currently.  Negateis okay, but I would only run one of those, Essence Scatter can be a 1 of as well in addition to the dissipate and syncopate.


Creatures - control decks play 0-10 creatures where most midrange decks play, 10-20-ish, control decks will try to get the game to a place where they can either play their threat and start beating their opponent, where as midrange decks usually stick multiple threats on the board and attempt to trade up with 2 for 1 spells and effects. Guttersnipe can be good, if built around properly, Nivix Cyclops and Young Pyromancer

Getting down to 75 is a good start, (60 main, 15 side).  Obviously as a new player you wont' have access to everything I mentioned, but you can look at the deck lists below learn from what they're trying to do.  Right now you're kind of all over the place.

Deck examples
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat … ckID=58170
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles … yromancer/
http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=262

511

(22 replies, posted in Decks and Deckbuilding)

Stolen identity doesn't strike me as a particularly effective card.  it's a more expensive harder to cast clone, for the chance you might get to use it again.  If you use it on aetherling you lose the cipher if you exile him.  And if you can't afford to exile him he loses a lot of power.

I played a RG deck that mained burning earth, it was annoying to say the least.  I think I'll be maindecking a little hate for that card from now on.   

Glad everything worked out for you.

Lingering souls would still help a lot.  Also if you can get 4 trading posts and a couple codex shredders there's some synergies there.  Sack a creature get an artifact, pay a life make a goat token, There's an equipment from innistrad that can be equipped by sacking a creature.  Or maybe even use the haunted plate mail.  Just some thoughts. 

Hope it works out for you. smile GLHF.

514

(22 replies, posted in Decks and Deckbuilding)

corpse jack won't help... he's not the card you're looking for IMO.  There are "stock" bug aggro decks if you want to look in that direction.

515

(22 replies, posted in Decks and Deckbuilding)

A final suggestion. If you buy packs, that's 5 packs.  What are the odds of you getting one kalonian hydra in 5 packs?  not good.  If you just spent that money on one card you'd get exactly what you want.

Other than that, good luck and have fun. smile

516

(22 replies, posted in Decks and Deckbuilding)

Def all of this could be considered.  I might consider keeping the renegade krasis, turn 2 renegade, turn 3, biomancer, makes the krasis a 4/3.  witch stalker might be a good 3 drop too.  Need something solid at the 3 slot to make the mana dorks really pay off.

You should probably "try" to get some kolonian hydra. 

Primordial Hydra x1
Elderscale Wurm x1
Giant Adephage x1
Vorel of the hull clade x2
Elusive Krasis x3
Zameck guildmage x2
Gyre Sage x4

517

(22 replies, posted in Decks and Deckbuilding)

I'd say you need at least 6 dorks.  You want to go big and go big fast for biomancer to work.  Turn 3 biomancer, turn 4 mimic copying him?  Could be good.  If you're week to flying there's no shortage of answers to flying in blue/green.  If you're not going aggro cloudfin it just too week.  Think about drawing cloudfin on an empty board turn 7 after some one manged to wipe it with supreme verdict or planar cleansing. 

Also aetherling is strong in these colors, though you don't want to just play him out with no mana to exile him.

518

(22 replies, posted in Decks and Deckbuilding)

Gotta make some cuts.  Mana ramp is good in a deck where your topping out at 6.  If you're ramping you don't nee the 1-2 drops.  Go straight for 3-4 and up.

519

(22 replies, posted in Decks and Deckbuilding)

If you're going to stick with biomancer plan, I think you need some additional ramp to get him out early.  elvish mistic/arbor elf.  It's going to be hard getting cards like progenitor and zegana on the board with 21 land, you need to go up to something like 23-24.  Gyre sage isn't enough ramp to get you there. 

The new garruk might be good for this deck, if you have mostly creatures with "green" in them.

yeah, but you don't know what you'll get in theros. so there's no way to plan for it... just focus on what you do now, and pick up some cards that work for you in the colors you want play.

Well, why are you trying to improve it?  You going to FNMs?  Or just having trouble beating a buddies deck?

I would say this as a piece of advice from a long time player to a fairly new one. A lot of newer players get into mill decks because they look fun on the surface and they are, it's an interesting win condition and  even some control decks can employ it as a win con in a competitive environment (though not too much lately).  However, these decks usually have to rely on control to stabilize the game because as you said they usually don't have a lot of life gain to help them stabilize against agro or any deck that does damage really.  If you're not really attached to milling as a theme then I'd suggest going for a more reliable win condition.

as for improving the deck as is. These kinds of decks need to control the game to win.  You can't aggro your way to victory with hexproof and cipher, people will eventually catch on if they haven't already and run cards that just beat you.

Lands - 28 is a hair to much, you should be able to go down to 25-26 tops.  Get some shock lands (water Graves) and check lands, (drowned catacombs).  Also a couple nephalia drownyards are good.

Creatures - You have some synergy here with the creatures you picked, I might get a hold of one aetherling as an alternate win condition, just in case you can't mill them out.  Notion thief is okay, but in a deck where you want to mill them out, letting them draw is actually a good thing.  All your doing is buying them more time.   I get the combo with invisible stalker and cipher if it's working for you keep it.  But i'd suggest auger of bolas instead of the fog bank. he can dig for cards for you and still block a little.

Spells - I really feel you can ditch most of the other spells in the deck.  I'd like to see more control spells and less janky combo spells. get rid of the keyrune.

thought scour is a draw card you need to be running or at the least pilfered plans. Drawing is your lifeblood in a deck like this.   and not from notion thief.

Tutoring is just bad, it's basically paying 4 extra mana and doing almost nothing for a turn to play a spell from your deck.  Where as if you just had better drawing you could draw what you need.

take mindgrind down to 1 of, you only need it as a finisher, that's if you don't draw jace.

a jace architect of thought would help a lot against aggro and probably net you some more cards, Tammyio, moon sage is good in these decks too.

Get some more removal, and counters,  run a couple syncopates and/or dissipates.  It stops recursion effects like unburial or flashback from the yard. Get some doom blade in here.  Dimir charm is really good, it has a lot of different modes.

Other thoughts - really to combat the life gain problem, you need white in the deck.  White gives you access to so much stuff, supreme verdict, sphinx's revelation, blood baron, obzedat.

It seams reasonable enough.  I might try testing archangel of thune.  She combos well, with resto/thrag and scavenging ooze.  Also, bonding her with silverblade means double life gain...  I still feel like you should be running a couple removal maindeck.  Like a couple o-rings or something. 

those are just suggestions... as long as resto and thrag are a thing, you have a solid deck "core"  splashing a 3rd color opens up some more options, depending on where you want to take the deck.

523

(22 replies, posted in Decks and Deckbuilding)

I've seen simic aggro do okay.   Get small creatures to do your work for you. With the advent of scavenging ooze you have another card that can combo off of burning tree emmissary.  So you might look into playing that and gyre sage.   

I wanted biomancer to be a card when it came out and when it goes off it's great, but for me it just wasn't consistent enough. 

You could try something like this.  Test it out see how it works

Experiment One x4
Cloudfin Raptor x 4
Burning Tree Emissary x4
Scavenging ooze x4
Gyre Sage x 4
Elusive Krasis x3
Witch Stalker x 3
Dead Bridge goliath x 2

Simic Charm x 3
Rancor x 3
Rapid Hybridizatin x2
Spectral Flight x 2

22 lands

sigarda, host of herons.
oblivian ring
trostani
other direct removal.
color protection spell

Nenio wrote:

Yeah i'm aware it's pretty much bant enchantments, but most of that deck is phasing out, and im only really playing playing with friends so far.

Rancor and Spectral flight are key enchantments when running an enchantment deck, but i'm not really interested in anything that's phasing out.

Sorry, your original post highly reflects someone who is talking about playing in standard events.  It sounded a lot like you wanted to go from casual to at least competitive FNM. 

You can play whatever casual.  The best thing to do until rotation is just continue to collect cards your interested in from RTR block and M14. 

That being said... you might try to get a couple o-rings, they're still in play for the next couple months , they're enchants and they aren't to expensive.  It could save you from a planes walker, some rogue enchant, or an artifact.  Remember if you give your guys pro white, your enchantments fall off, same for gift of orzhov and black.  You might try more directed removal or celestial flair.   Gideon might not be bad in this deck too.  If he gets +1/+1 counters from thune they don't fall off when he goes back to a walker.  They won't help him if he takes damage as a walker, but they could be releveant if you utlmate him.

PS, I don't like the cats.. they're bad.  You might splash some black/green for something that actually conveys  lifelink.