so on oct:7th we set up a trade worth at the time around 45$ and both sides agreed and said we would send the next day. 2 weeks later i still have not recieved the cards but he has and he claims to have sent them on oct: 11 another week later he says he would buy me a gift certificate for starcity for the amount of the cards and i said that would be fine and i would reimburse him if the cards came. he said on nov: 6 that i should have gotten an email from starcity but i never did then after trying to contact him about that he canceled the trade and I still have not gotten the cards or gift certificate
People like this piss me off -.-

here is the chat log from the trade


ichorclaw tried to fill out stuff that you had on the wishlist and included the expensive stuff 07 Oct
jakehash The serenity is already taken and I'm not sure if te archangel is I'll have to check when I get home 07 Oct
jakehash And what condition is the survival in? Cause I only need one land tax 07 Oct
ichorclaw It's NM 07 Oct
jakehash Ok. I this very thing you would want? 07 Oct
ichorclaw How about this? 07 Oct
jakehash I'll try my best to get it out tomorrow but work might get in the way 07 Oct
ichorclaw No rush, I'll have mine out tomorrow afternoon or so. 08 Oct
jakehash Hey I was wondering when you sent the cards? 22 Oct
ichorclaw The 11th it looks like 22 Oct
ichorclaw Let me know if you still don't have the package by friday 22 Oct
ichorclaw I'll take care of it if you don't by then 22 Oct
jakehash Ok will do ^.^ 22 Oct
jakehash Still nothing sadly 26 Oct
jakehash Let's give it till Monday post arrives 27 Oct
ichorclaw If you don't see it then, I'll go ahead and provide you the trade value in a gift certificate or paypal, LMK 27 Oct
ichorclaw just promise to refund / send back if it does show up 27 Oct
jakehash Ok 27 Oct
jakehash Still nothing man 29 Oct
ichorclaw okay, where would you like the gift certificate or would you rather have paypal 29 Oct
jakehash Don't have a PayPal and I would prefer a visa gift card of possible 29 Oct
jakehash And if I get cards while the gift card is on it's way I will send back without even opening sound good? 29 Oct
ichorclaw oh, I was going to send you a gift card electronically to like starcitygames or something so you can rebuy the cards 30 Oct
ichorclaw I'd prefer to not mail anything else 30 Oct
jakehash I have no idea how to do that electronically lol 30 Oct
jakehash But ya we could do that 30 Oct
ichorclaw I need an email address 30 Oct
jakehash (put my email here) 30 Oct
jakehash ? 03 Nov
jakehash Hello? 05 Nov
ichorclaw You should have received a gift certificate to that yahoo address from starcity games for 56.00 06 Nov
jakehash when did you send it? 06 Nov
jakehash and could you resend cause i didnt see anything 06 Nov
jakehash cause i didnt have a starcity account 06 Nov
jakehash Hey I haven't gotten an email or anything 11 Nov
jakehash hello? 12 Nov

And after this statement he canceled the trade so I couldn't even give him a bad review

Did he confirm addresses? If so, you should contact mods/deckbox team as this is a clear violation of the rules. Confirmation of address indicates that both user's are obligated to follow through and as such, he should receive some form of punishment for failure to comply with the rules.

iamsolipsism wrote:Did he confirm addresses? If so, you should contact mods/deckbox team as this is a clear violation of the rules. Confirmation of address indicates that both user's are obligated to follow through and as such, he should receive some form of punishment for failure to comply with the rules.

I did and they are looking it over

Per ichorclaw's current profile (not sure when s/he changed it to the following):


"Family issues, no longer trading"

HikingStick wrote:Per ichorclaw's current profile (not sure when s/he changed it to the following):


"Family issues, no longer trading"

I saw that too and they put it up right after he canceled on our trade which means after all this nonsense went down

I feel for you. I have a trade in progress now with a trusted trader. Per the post office, he received his cards two weeks ago (I have delivery confirmation info), but has not marked them received. I've also not seen his cards. Normally, our exchanges take a few days. The most frustrating thing is the lack of communication (especially when you can see by their status that they have been online).

*UPDATE* My trading partner got in touch with me today, after I asked the folks at support@deckbox.org to review the situation.

Thanx for the heads up even though I'm still waiting for my cards from him. Guess I might as well not bother!!!

On Reddit his username was icitrik. I tried a trade with him long ago with no return. This is M Lee from Katy, TX, correct?

You all have his address. Do something about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_and_wire_fraud

outofstep wrote:You all have his address. Do something about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_and_wire_fraud

I've been researching this recently. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to prove fraud with an isolated case. The postal inspection service looks for patterns of fraud when evaluating cases. I'm not saying one should not pursue such avenues, but am just noting that it might be hard to prove.

That said, each time a person reports a fraud involving a person/address, it helps establish the pattern that might eventually allow them to take action against someone.

I just ran across another user who reported problems with the same user. I referred him (or her) to this thread. Given that there is more than one of you, I strongly recommend you each contact your local post office, describe the situation (noting that you are not the only one affected), and start the process of filing a formal complaint regarding possible mail fraud.

HikingStick wrote:I just ran across another user who reported problems with the same user. I referred him (or her) to this thread. Given that there is more than one of you, I strongly recommend you each contact your local post office, describe the situation (noting that you are not the only one affected), and start the process of filing a formal complaint regarding possible mail fraud.

Yes I had issues with the same guy... I normally send with 24 hours of the trade being agreed upon, unless something else happens, but then I tell the person what's going on and then try my best to get it out ASAP. This guy? Nope. Read on:

Zuul36 Sure this will be fine. 17 Oct

Zuul36 I'll send in the morning. 17 Oct

ichorclaw same 17 Oct

Zuul36 DC #9400 1096 9993 7240 4341 35 18 Oct

Zuul36 Hi there, I show my cards have reached you, but I haven't received the foil Blood Crypt. 27 Oct

ichorclaw I just checked and did get the cards 27 Oct

ichorclaw It should have reached you, if you don't see it by monday or tuesday, let me know and I'll take care of it 27 Oct

Zuul36 Thank you. 28 Oct

ichorclaw I am assuming this eventually reached you? 06 Nov

Zuul36 Yesterday, yes. Postmarked the 30th. 07 Nov

So he never sent it out when he was supposed to on the 17th, on the 27th I questioned him on it and he reacted like he did send it when he was supposed to. Now I live in a town which is 2.5 hours by car away from Katy (Pflugerville) and it's supposed to take longer than 2 days to reach me by post? I'm sorry, but I was receiving items from Maine faster than from this guy in the same state.

Plus the postmark gave him completely away on his lie. Look.... I'm fine if you have a life problem... we all have them but at least CONTACT YOUR TRADE PARTNER!

Hello,

Thanks for referring me to this thread HikingStick. I am in a similar situation as jakehash. ichorclaw and I made a trade on Oct 23. According to delivery confirmation he received the cards on the 26th (though he didn't and still hasn't marked them as received). Through a series of messages I got the same run around. Wait a few days and if nothing shows up he promised a refund through paypal or SCG gift certificate. On Nov 9 I told him I wanted a paypal refund. On Nov 13 he responded, "No problem, I'll take care of this shortly." Obviously, nothing has been rectified or I wouldn't be here right now. I message him on a daily basis since I can tell he is still reading his messages.

I researched a bit on mail fraud and was discouraged because it sounded like with isolated events nothing much ever comes of it. Now that it is clear at least one other is in the same situation, I will take the time to file a formal complaint. I hope you do as well.

Zuul36 wrote: Look.... I'm fine if you have a life problem... we all have them but at least CONTACT YOUR TRADE PARTNER!

To me, that's the real lesson for all the rest of us.

shogan21 wrote:I researched a bit on mail fraud and was discouraged because it sounded like with isolated events nothing much ever comes of it. Now that it is clear at least one other is in the same situation, I will take the time to file a formal complaint. I hope you do as well.

Yes, this is what my research led me to understand as well. Someone else here noted there may have been problems with this trader on another venue. If that's true, I ask that they refer folks there to this thread, or at least post the same admonition there: that ALL affected traders file reports so as to get an investigation going.

I'm going to shoot a message to the site admin, Sebi, to bounce a few ideas off him regarding possible safeguards in the future (e.g., keeping record of the addresses used in trades that go south so that they can be flagged if they are used again in association with a new account).

From everything that I see this appears to be an honest mistake. A mistake handled poorly I agree, but no bad intentions.

Woolcock66 wrote:From everything that I see this appears to be an honest mistake. A mistake handled poorly I agree, but no bad intentions.

I would agree with you, but it's now multiple people that this trader has affected. I considering myself getting off lucky considering what everyone else has gone through.

Woolcock66 wrote:From everything that I see this appears to be an honest mistake. A mistake handled poorly I agree, but no bad intentions.

I highly doubt ichorclaw had no bad intentions. An honest mistake occurs once and the user will attempt to rectify said mistakes. ichorclaw made no attempts to truly fix his mistakes; his whole Paypal/SCG refund had proven to be bogus. (No user has received the refund.)

Though he may have personal issues, this is still not reason enough to lie about sending, especially a month's delay. If I was trading, I would want to know what the deal is at all times, regardless of personal issues.

To be honest, ichorclaw on any other trading forum would be banned at this point and users would be told to file for mail fraud. Deckbox is still relatively new and isn't as strict on security (a huge flaw in their system) so ichorclaw will probably get away with this without consequence; however, I hope that the deckbox team see this as an opportunity to step up their rulings, security and safety for their users.

HikingStick wrote:

shogan21 wrote:I researched a bit on mail fraud and was discouraged because it sounded like with isolated events nothing much ever comes of it. Now that it is clear at least one other is in the same situation, I will take the time to file a formal complaint. I hope you do as well.

Yes, this is what my research led me to understand as well. Someone else here noted there may have been problems with this trader on another venue. If that's true, I ask that they refer folks there to this thread, or at least post the same admonition there: that ALL affected traders file reports so as to get an investigation going.

I'm going to shoot a message to the site admin, Sebi, to bounce a few ideas off him regarding possible safeguards in the future (e.g., keeping record of the addresses used in trades that go south so that they can be flagged if they are used again in association with a new account).

If you don't mind, I also have a few ideas to increase the validity and safety of users on this site.

1. Once a trade is confirmed, change to code so that users cannot cancel trades without the approval of both parties. This stops users from backing out of trades which have already been accepted by both parties.

2. Actively implement a program that deletes inactive accounts with warnings. This gives notification to users who may have had a moment of lapse in memory and forgotten about their trade.

3. Keep a list of all users/addresses/IPs caught ripping, scamming or having bad trading practices including but not limited to lying, delaying sends on simul-sends, badly packaged cards etc.

4. Adding onto 3., force users to enter their addresses in a hidden part of their profile so that each address comes out the same. With this system, checking addresses against the ban-list is simpler and users do not have to re-type their addresses every trade.

5. Allow downvotes of canceled trades to affect trader score in a separate rating. This score should be viewed as a trader's ability to communicate, his/her trading practices, and their overall ability to conduct themselves.

I am in contact with ichorclaw on another forum that we are both members of regarding a trade we arranged here, I will keep the thread posted. I have received successful trades from him in the past, so I'm inclined to believe that something's happened that has prevented him from contacting us.

LootPinata wrote:I am in contact with ichorclaw on another forum that we are both members of regarding a trade we arranged here, I will keep the thread posted. I have received successful trades from him in the past, so I'm inclined to believe that something's happened that has prevented him from contacting us.

That's something plausible but I really wonder if this is not a hoax considering he lied to users about when he sent out their cards. Postmark dates seem to contradict him by 2 weeks.

This is the exact post MOTL moderators make in terms of trade rippers cases. I would suggest following this.

I suggest you file for mail fraud.

1. What exactly is mail fraud?
The first important link is to the USPS postal inspectors website:
http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/
More specifically, here is the link to Title 18 of the USPS Postal Code regarding Mail Fraud, Swindles, and the use of a Fictitious name for mail delivery in cases of fraud:
http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/usc18/mailfr.htm

In synopsis, mail fraud is a felony offense and for every individual instance of fraud the ripper “shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both”. Remember that each individual letter that is stolen and each instance of ripping that occurs is considered a separate prosecutable felony offense! Once convicted of a felony, the felon will have to disclose their felony offense on all job applications throughout their life. Felons are also automatically barred from certain sensitive government and civil jobs that involve classified information and employer trust. In short, a felony lasts a lifetime.

It is also important to note that the Postal Code specifically references those using a false name to obtain delivery. If someone misrepresents their identity for the purpose of obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, they will be found guilty of mail fraud.

2. How do I file for mail fraud?
If you are indeed the victim of mail fraud, you have a couple of different options, all of which are extremely easy to use and not time-consuming at all:
You can call or visit your local post office to obtain help and to file the Mail Fraud Complaint Form.
You can find a postal inspector near you who can help more with your problem:
http://www.usps.com/ncsc/locators/find-is.html
You can use this link to an online Mail Fraud form and file your mail fraud complaint in a couple minutes!:
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/forms/MailFraudComplaint.aspx
There is even a toll-free number that you can call to obtain help!
1-800-372-8347 Mail Fraud Hotline

Keep all evidence that you have regarding your complaint. Print out and include all unedited original emails, physical addresses, supposed names, lists of all items involved, names and contact information for any other people with similar problems, etc. All these things are vital to a successful prosecution and compensation for your loss. If you choose to file mail fraud using the online form, you will receive an automatic letter acknowledgement and your claim will then be processed. If you have all the information neatly organized and well presented, your claim will be processed faster. Similarly, if your loss is monetarily large or involves multiple parties, your claim will be prioritized accordingly.

For fraud cases within the US, I would contact the local police department of the ripper (or contact your local PD and request an “agency assist” to an investigator in the city where the ripper lives). They will take your complaint information and send a detective to physically interview the ripper (or his parents). Remember that the law is there to work for you.

iamsolipsism wrote: 4. Adding onto 3., force users to enter their addresses in a hidden part of their profile so that each address comes out the same. With this system, checking addresses against the ban-list is simpler and users do not have to re-type their addresses every trade.

This is already implemented. You can add your address under your profile. I feel sorry if you've entered it every time you've traded :(

I have successfully completed trades with ichorclaw as well. I mean there are situations that can come up that would make it unable to respond. Trips to hospitals, staying in hotels, not everyone has the money to pay for wifi when they aren't at home. And if you don't have time to go to the post office to drop off the cards, you probably don't have time running around town looking for places with free wifi. That's just my opinion. Cancelling the trade was a little weird though, so that makes me suspicious. As far as delaying the simultaneous send, I agree that it isn't correct and they should get negative feed back for it, but if the cards arrive in the reported condition, negative feedback is enough for me. I'm not going to avoid a trader because it took them a week or two to get the trade sent. I'll just leave them feedback that reflects that to let people that trade with them in the future know what to expect.

Woolcock66 wrote:I have successfully completed trades with ichorclaw as well. I mean there are situations that can come up that would make it unable to respond. Trips to hospitals, staying in hotels, not everyone has the money to pay for wifi when they aren't at home. And if you don't have time to go to the post office to drop off the cards, you probably don't have time running around town looking for places with free wifi. That's just my opinion. Cancelling the trade was a little weird though, so that makes me suspicious. As far as delaying the simultaneous send, I agree that it isn't correct and they should get negative feed back for it, but if the cards arrive in the reported condition, negative feedback is enough for me. I'm not going to avoid a trader because it took them a week or two to get the trade sent. I'll just leave them feedback that reflects that to let people that trade with them in the future know what to expect.

ya but every time i looked in the trade to see if anything has been said if you hover the pointer over the little man by the name it says the last time they were on and he/ she was on every day so i dont think there was anything wrong with his wifi.

jakehash wrote:ya but every time i looked in the trade to see if anything has been said if you hover the pointer over the little man by the name it says the last time they were on and he/ she was on every day so i dont think there was anything wrong with his wifi.

Similar to this, if you look on their profile and click trades, you can see what messages they have marked as unread and such. If you do this and they have messages unread, then they could be ignoring it, someone else can be using their computer and this is in their startup pages, or something like that. That, or they can be reading them, then not replying, which would mean the system would show you that they have no unread messages.

This does not seem to be the case though, as they actively cancelled the trade.

Woolcock66 wrote:I have successfully completed trades with ichorclaw as well. I mean there are situations that can come up that would make it unable to respond. Trips to hospitals, staying in hotels, not everyone has the money to pay for wifi when they aren't at home. And if you don't have time to go to the post office to drop off the cards, you probably don't have time running around town looking for places with free wifi. That's just my opinion. Cancelling the trade was a little weird though, so that makes me suspicious. As far as delaying the simultaneous send, I agree that it isn't correct and they should get negative feed back for it, but if the cards arrive in the reported condition, negative feedback is enough for me. I'm not going to avoid a trader because it took them a week or two to get the trade sent. I'll just leave them feedback that reflects that to let people that trade with them in the future know what to expect.

The whole idea about being in a situation where you are unable to respond, an action that takes no more than a couple of minutes, just seems outlandish to me. Breaking down the situation, as long as he is able to receive internet connection for a couple of moments, he'll be able to respond. In today's day and age, I highly doubt anyone is unable to obtain internet access with respect to the idea that smartphones, libraries, coffee shops, home connections and various other places offer unbelievable coverage.

Second, his last online date also strikes me as odd that he wasn't able to respond after being online, canceling trades and editing profile. Without the last online date, this case might be able to be passed off as a simple unable to log on; however, with that information, this has striking resemblance to many similar likewise cases.

Finally, traders that lie and send their packages late (a sign of lack of trust with the simul-send agreement), negative feedback is definitely not enough. Timeliness is as important as card condition in the sense that cards in mail or not yet sent is the equivalent of a lack of those said cards. This means that the person on the other end of the tardy user's trade is unfairly burdened with loss of time that ultimately may translate to loss of value.

I almost feel like delivery confirmation should be a requirement at this point, seriously. Enough with trying to get the cheapest shipping possible, especially if you're sending cards worth over $25. I don't care how poor you are. If you can afford to play Magic in the first place, then you can afford $3 for shipping of cards. If people are using DC, then there is none of the, "well, he said he sent it on the 7th, but I never got it, then he said he sent it on the 18th again..." bullshit. If you use DC, this is what you see on USPS.com:

Dispatched to Sort Facility
November 15, 2012, 6:20 pm WILMINGTON, DE 19801

Acceptance
November 15, 2012, 8:24 am WILMINGTON, DE 19801

It's accepted at the facility and then it's sent out. There is no issue of someone stringing you along with lies of sending it and not doing so. If they don't post a tracking number, they didn't send it. Then end.

FYI - I also traded with Ichorclaw and his card didn't arrive for 2+ weeks. When I told him that we needed to resolve it, he immediately paypal'd me the amount I requested (equal to what I paid to buy the same card on ebay).

He did the right thing without me having to threaten, beg or argue, so let's not string him up just yet.

Also, his card did eventually show up. I think he just shipped way way later than he claimed to.