Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards (Page 1 of 2)

I don't think that is a great idea. I would imagine that would cause issues for some people who may not really have an LGS or one that is quite a ways away.  Also I would think a lot of stores aren't going to want to be the local ID shop, who would want the liability? I mean if someone offered to sell them cards they'll look them over carefully of course, but just going into a store and saying "is this fake?" I feel that there are a lot of stores that won't be willing to be the judge of that kind of thing.
I think a better use of this sites resources would be if someone has or is willing to make a good primer on fake cards, how different era's of cards are different from each other (old alpha-unlim vs. modern printed cards feel diff.) and so forth. The light trick, the blue line, etc. The best defense is knowledge. What if someone's local card store just won't make a judgement for fear of liability? The deckbox team does a hell of a job to set up a safe environment, but at the end of the day, it is Buyer Beware.
This looks like a good starting resource from the Mothership. https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/ … eature/209
Customer Service info about counterfeit cards from Wizards. http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers … feit-cards
found this video linked to on mtgsalvation and was one of the top search results in google. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpse1P3V8PE He demonstrates the common tests.

Last edited by jassi007 (2013-09-12 18:17:54)

the problem is ultimately who is the final arbiter? Unless you bend it, smudge it or tear it you can't tell for SURE. Otherwise it is a judgement. If I trade someone a piece of power, real or fake, knowingly or not, when someone accuses me I'm going to do two things. 1. deny it. 2. refuse any test that could damage the card. Logically if it is real I deny its fake, if its fake I'm not going to admit it. If it is fake but i truly believe it isn't, I'm going to deny it. 2. If it is a real card and you ask to bend my card, put water on it, or rip it up, duh I'm going to say no. If it is fake, I know that you are trying to test for that, so I'm going to say no.

If you mark someone as sending fakes, or maybe sending fakes, or leave them a neg, then you might as well ban their account. Who is going to trade with them? Doing this without proof positive seems to be asking for a world of shit. Someone upset you? Accuse their cards of being fake! It is not a great idea.

Education and vigilance are the only defenses against fake cards.

On a personal note, I don't know if I could buy or trade for power without seeing the card first or it being a reputable source. it is one of those times paying Star City a premium for a card is probably worthwhile.

You should definitely look into other policies first. Having someone ask their local game store isn't really a full proof plan, since they can a.) lie about it anyways, or b.) get stuck with someone who doesn't know enough about the subject (which has happened to me before; i've been in video games store with blatantly obvious fake Pokemon games for sale, as well as the cashier not knowing the difference between a real and fake one.)

Honestly the best thing to do would be to have the senders upload scans of their cards and let the opposing party judge. If they're unsure, they could always go and ask someone on a forum.

I don't think this is an issue that Deckbox needs to have an official policy for. Certainly, sending a fake card doesn't count as fulfilling part of a trade, and the rules already cover that. I think the burden of fake vs. real proof has to be on whoever is in physical possession of the card when the issue is raised. If the receiver thinks he got a fake card, he should present that evidence as part of the inevitable BTR, and "I know a guy who knows a lot about fakes and he says it's fake" should not count as proof.

What about a high powered scan? Is that enough? I feel that in the case that caused this ruling to be brought up, there was enough evidence presented to claim that it was fake due to the obvious printer stenography. Should the seller/person sending the card be liable for that? Or claim negligence (if its true or not) and be able to continue trading without any warning/marking.

Lets say as a recipient my concern was that this card would be passed along to another less vigilant member of the community and so I open a BTR because I don't think they should get the card back just to send it to another person? If I just give them the card back, then someone else will get a fake card! So I as the recipient open the BTR because the card is fake! How should the deckbox team handle that?

The problem is that you're implicitly assuming that the seller knows the card is fake and is trying to scam people. What if the person doesn't know it's a fake? Or worse, what if the card is real but the receiver doesn't know how to properly judge older cards? I received a Karakas in a trade that I was convinced was fake until people told me that the printing pattern I saw on the card was actually a sign that the card was real, not vice versa.

I think opening a BTR or forum post to alert people of a potential fake is totally justified. If the mods see a post about John Smith trading a fake mox, and then a month later see a second post about the same John Smith and the same fake mox, then it's suddenly a lot more clear that some action can be taken.

Ok, so when they open a BTR, what do you expect the outcome to be? The fake is sent back, and if the other party receives cards they send them back as well right?

What happens if the other party no longer has some or all of the cards? The deckbox team shouldn't be community police, I agree, but they have to have some idea of what they're going to do or say when people bring up a situation.

My thought is put a few easy resources in their trade rules (like a link to Wizards page on couterfeit cards) and leave it at that. If someone wants to open a BTR for fake ok obviously they can post, but what should the general expected outcome be?  Like if I ship cards and you don't get them, the general expected outcome is I either send again, or we undo the trade. We don't want the mod to decide if the card is fake, so we are going to trust the recipient and let them unwind the trade right? The sender of the fake card is going to have issue with that unless they didn't receive cards yet.

Last edited by jassi007 (2013-09-12 19:44:38)

Totally agreed in all respects.

I think it would be handy to program it in the feedback to make it possible to let you guys have the information.
Depending on the stats you get from the feedback about fake cards you can decide what could be the next step.
I'm pretty sure that if a user is on Deckbox with trading fake cards in mind the majority of his trades of higher priced cards will be fake and flagged and you will see this in the stats then.
I am sure that if a user really was not aware of the fake card it will be just a one time occurrence in the stats, at least this is what i think.
I would suggest that implementing the feature to report it in the feedback about the trade but not yet flagging will provide the development team after let's say 6 or 12 months with the information on how large this portion is on the website and if there is a need for programming it further.
If you see the scenario as I described above I would suggest to set the flag after several bad trades per trade amount (e.g. : 3 fake cards reported in 5 trades with cards higher then $50).

Regards,
YouryDW

I am with jassi007  on this topic in all counts.   

There could be traders (especially newbies) that legitimately trade a fake and don't know it, and you want to mark them for it? I think that as long as when the fake is discovered and the one sending the fake makes amends then that should be that. 

Someone who is deliberately sending fakes will get discovered and ratted out (via these forums). Deal with them on a  case by case basis as they come up (which really, I can only see as being a rare thing on this site...trading is much more labour intensive to a true scam artist who is after the cash, not more cards. They are less likely to waste their time in trades when they can sell them...just my humble opinion).

I say don't look for the mountains when there are only mole hills. Concentrate on much more needed features on this site rather than something that may rarely if ever even come up.

A lot of good points and arguments here on all sides, big thank you to all who contributed.

Still thinking about this, but what we will definitely do is add a section in the rules and guidelines that describes the problem and informs people on how to check for fakes. As for the rest of the feature possibilities, we're not too sure yet.