Topic: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

We've been involved in some discussions referring to users sending (with or without their knowledge) fake cards. (I'm talking here about valuable cards, power 9, etc).

Prompted by this I thought we should have a section in our rules referring to this possible issue.

One option would be to state that senders of cards worth more than a considerable sum (let's say 150$) are responsible to ask their local magic store if the card is indeed genuine before sending it in a trade. Should a valuable card be proven to be fake by the receiver, the trade would be undone, and the sender would receive a "flag" or "mark" saying that he has been distributing fake cards.

How does that sound, what do you guys think about this rule? (Obviously this would not apply to trades in the past, just ones from now on).

Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

sebi wrote:

We've been involved in some discussions referring to users sending (with or without their knowledge) fake cards. (I'm talking here about valuable cards, power 9, etc).

Prompted by this I thought we should have a section in our rules referring to this possible issue.

One option would be to state that senders of cards worth more than a considerable sum (let's say 150$) are responsible to ask their local magic store if the card is indeed genuine before sending it in a trade. Should a valuable card be proven to be fake by the receiver, the trade would be undone, and the sender would receive a "flag" or "mark" saying that he has been distributing fake cards.

How does that sound, what do you guys think about this rule? (Obviously this would not apply to trades in the past, just ones from now on).

I don't think that is a great idea. I would imagine that would cause issues for some people who may not really have an LGS or one that is quite a ways away.  Also I would think a lot of stores aren't going to want to be the local ID shop, who would want the liability? I mean if someone offered to sell them cards they'll look them over carefully of course, but just going into a store and saying "is this fake?" I feel that there are a lot of stores that won't be willing to be the judge of that kind of thing.
I think a better use of this sites resources would be if someone has or is willing to make a good primer on fake cards, how different era's of cards are different from each other (old alpha-unlim vs. modern printed cards feel diff.) and so forth. The light trick, the blue line, etc. The best defense is knowledge. What if someone's local card store just won't make a judgement for fear of liability? The deckbox team does a hell of a job to set up a safe environment, but at the end of the day, it is Buyer Beware.
This looks like a good starting resource from the Mothership. https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/ … eature/209
Customer Service info about counterfeit cards from Wizards. http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers … feit-cards
found this video linked to on mtgsalvation and was one of the top search results in google. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpse1P3V8PE He demonstrates the common tests.

Last edited by jassi007 (2013-09-12 18:17:54)

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

It is tricky, but someone could in theory try to send out fake cards only to claim they didn't know they were fake, allowing them to get away with trying to scam someone with no reprocusions.

There should atleast be marked as such, or atleast be able to give them negative feedback on the trade.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

ColtonisWright wrote:

It is tricky, but someone could in theory try to send out fake cards only to claim they didn't know they were fake, allowing them to get away with trying to scam someone with no reprocusions.

There should atleast be marked as such, or atleast be able to give them negative feedback on the trade.

the problem is ultimately who is the final arbiter? Unless you bend it, smudge it or tear it you can't tell for SURE. Otherwise it is a judgement. If I trade someone a piece of power, real or fake, knowingly or not, when someone accuses me I'm going to do two things. 1. deny it. 2. refuse any test that could damage the card. Logically if it is real I deny its fake, if its fake I'm not going to admit it. If it is fake but i truly believe it isn't, I'm going to deny it. 2. If it is a real card and you ask to bend my card, put water on it, or rip it up, duh I'm going to say no. If it is fake, I know that you are trying to test for that, so I'm going to say no.

If you mark someone as sending fakes, or maybe sending fakes, or leave them a neg, then you might as well ban their account. Who is going to trade with them? Doing this without proof positive seems to be asking for a world of shit. Someone upset you? Accuse their cards of being fake! It is not a great idea.

Education and vigilance are the only defenses against fake cards.

On a personal note, I don't know if I could buy or trade for power without seeing the card first or it being a reputable source. it is one of those times paying Star City a premium for a card is probably worthwhile.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

There's a huge profit to be made by faking the expensive cards so I'm sure some people will try it but I don't think its the majority of people. 

When it does happen, and someone opens a BTR because of it you just need to stick to the rules and mediate.  Whatever the resolution is it needs to be amicable between the traders.  But, as a moderator how do you decide to allow someone to leave negative feedback if someone cry's "Fake!"?  You can't examine the card and you can't take sides. 

It should be "Buyer beware" right?  You can't hold peoples hands as moderators. That's not your job.

I think you guys need to have some sort of disclaimer more than anything.  When you're talking about $100s-$1000s, worth of cards your opening yourself up to some serious business.  What's other websites policies on these things?  How does ebay handle it if, someone is selling a fake antique?  It's basically a type of fraud right?  Does the fact we trade through mail add extra weight to the issue?

Now that I've typed it all out like that,  I honestly think you guys should contact a lawyer to get some help.

Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

You should definitely look into other policies first. Having someone ask their local game store isn't really a full proof plan, since they can a.) lie about it anyways, or b.) get stuck with someone who doesn't know enough about the subject (which has happened to me before; i've been in video games store with blatantly obvious fake Pokemon games for sale, as well as the cashier not knowing the difference between a real and fake one.)

Honestly the best thing to do would be to have the senders upload scans of their cards and let the opposing party judge. If they're unsure, they could always go and ask someone on a forum.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

elpablo wrote:

There's a huge profit to be made by faking the expensive cards so I'm sure some people will try it but I don't think its the majority of people. 

When it does happen, and someone opens a BTR because of it you just need to stick to the rules and mediate.  Whatever the resolution is it needs to be amicable between the traders.  But, as a moderator how do you decide to allow someone to leave negative feedback if someone cry's "Fake!"?  You can't examine the card and you can't take sides. 

It should be "Buyer beware" right?  You can't hold peoples hands as moderators. That's not your job.

I think you guys need to have some sort of disclaimer more than anything.  When you're talking about $100s-$1000s, worth of cards your opening yourself up to some serious business.  What's other websites policies on these things?  How does ebay handle it if, someone is selling a fake antique?  It's basically a type of fraud right?  Does the fact we trade through mail add extra weight to the issue?


Now that I've typed it all out like that,  I honestly think you guys should contact a lawyer to get some help.

Checking ebay for policy isn't a bad idea. This may be common sense, but ebay holds the "seller" of an item liable to its authenticity. http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/aut … imers.html

The main problem with that, is policy can easily become an unwind trade button. Dark Confidant spike $15 in a value last week? Obviously the one card you got was fake, unwind the trade. On the other hand, the person sending the card should be confident that it is real. Having it authenticated would be good, but I'm not sure it should be mandatory.  That can be a problem in and of itself. I think the recipient could request such a thing, and if the sender doesn't or can't comply, the recipient makes the final decision.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

I don't think this is an issue that Deckbox needs to have an official policy for. Certainly, sending a fake card doesn't count as fulfilling part of a trade, and the rules already cover that. I think the burden of fake vs. real proof has to be on whoever is in physical possession of the card when the issue is raised. If the receiver thinks he got a fake card, he should present that evidence as part of the inevitable BTR, and "I know a guy who knows a lot about fakes and he says it's fake" should not count as proof.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

PhyrexianLibrarian wrote:

I don't think this is an issue that Deckbox needs to have an official policy for. Certainly, sending a fake card doesn't count as fulfilling part of a trade, and the rules already cover that. I think the burden of fake vs. real proof has to be on whoever is in physical possession of the card when the issue is raised. If the receiver thinks he got a fake card, he should present that evidence as part of the inevitable BTR, and "I know a guy who knows a lot about fakes and he says it's fake" should not count as proof.

You might think so, but what happens when two parties open up a dispute for the issue of how to handle a fake card? So lets say I was sent a fake card, and I say based on x, y, and z it looks fake. The sender responds with "nope its real send it back if you want and we'll undo the trade" Then what?

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

PhyrexianLibrarian wrote:

I don't think this is an issue that Deckbox needs to have an official policy for. Certainly, sending a fake card doesn't count as fulfilling part of a trade, and the rules already cover that. I think the burden of fake vs. real proof has to be on whoever is in physical possession of the card when the issue is raised. If the receiver thinks he got a fake card, he should present that evidence as part of the inevitable BTR, and "I know a guy who knows a lot about fakes and he says it's fake" should not count as proof.


What about a high powered scan? Is that enough? I feel that in the case that caused this ruling to be brought up, there was enough evidence presented to claim that it was fake due to the obvious printer stenography. Should the seller/person sending the card be liable for that? Or claim negligence (if its true or not) and be able to continue trading without any warning/marking.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

jassi007 wrote:
PhyrexianLibrarian wrote:

I don't think this is an issue that Deckbox needs to have an official policy for. Certainly, sending a fake card doesn't count as fulfilling part of a trade, and the rules already cover that. I think the burden of fake vs. real proof has to be on whoever is in physical possession of the card when the issue is raised. If the receiver thinks he got a fake card, he should present that evidence as part of the inevitable BTR, and "I know a guy who knows a lot about fakes and he says it's fake" should not count as proof.

You might think so, but what happens when two parties open up a dispute for the issue of how to handle a fake card? So lets say I was sent a fake card, and I say based on x, y, and z it looks fake. The sender responds with "nope its real send it back if you want and we'll undo the trade" Then what?

In that situation, I would send back the fake card and the trade is undone. We're both out postage, but in my eyes that's no different than if I received any other card that wasn't as described (condition, language, set, etc.). In a sense, a card being "real" is just another property of the card itself.

If the sender says "nope it's real and you're stuck with it now", I'd take my case to the BTR forum along with my evidence.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

PhyrexianLibrarian wrote:
jassi007 wrote:
PhyrexianLibrarian wrote:

I don't think this is an issue that Deckbox needs to have an official policy for. Certainly, sending a fake card doesn't count as fulfilling part of a trade, and the rules already cover that. I think the burden of fake vs. real proof has to be on whoever is in physical possession of the card when the issue is raised. If the receiver thinks he got a fake card, he should present that evidence as part of the inevitable BTR, and "I know a guy who knows a lot about fakes and he says it's fake" should not count as proof.

You might think so, but what happens when two parties open up a dispute for the issue of how to handle a fake card? So lets say I was sent a fake card, and I say based on x, y, and z it looks fake. The sender responds with "nope its real send it back if you want and we'll undo the trade" Then what?

In that situation, I would send back the fake card and the trade is undone. We're both out postage, but in my eyes that's no different than if I received any other card that wasn't as described (condition, language, set, etc.). In a sense, a card being "real" is just another property of the card itself.

If the sender says "nope it's real and you're stuck with it now", I'd take my case to the BTR forum along with my evidence.

Lets say as a recipient my concern was that this card would be passed along to another less vigilant member of the community and so I open a BTR because I don't think they should get the card back just to send it to another person? If I just give them the card back, then someone else will get a fake card! So I as the recipient open the BTR because the card is fake! How should the deckbox team handle that?

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

a lot of "what ifs" here.  Chances are the person didn't know it was fake.  Sure there will be scammers, but I believe most people just want to decent trade.  You can't assume everyone is a scammer because they traded for/bought a fake card then took it to deckbox to get value.

There was a link on reddit a while back that someone put up an expensive card on ebay that was fake.  It even said the card was fake in on the ebay listing.  Albeit in a very deceptive way.  The last bid I saw was over $100.  The point is...  the person that got the card might believe it was real and they didn't really do anything wrong.

The deckbox moderators shouldn't be in the business of policing the community.  It creates a liability for them.

Last edited by elpablo (2013-09-12 19:18:33)

Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

jassi007 wrote:
PhyrexianLibrarian wrote:
jassi007 wrote:

You might think so, but what happens when two parties open up a dispute for the issue of how to handle a fake card? So lets say I was sent a fake card, and I say based on x, y, and z it looks fake. The sender responds with "nope its real send it back if you want and we'll undo the trade" Then what?

In that situation, I would send back the fake card and the trade is undone. We're both out postage, but in my eyes that's no different than if I received any other card that wasn't as described (condition, language, set, etc.). In a sense, a card being "real" is just another property of the card itself.

If the sender says "nope it's real and you're stuck with it now", I'd take my case to the BTR forum along with my evidence.

Lets say as a recipient my concern was that this card would be passed along to another less vigilant member of the community and so I open a BTR because I don't think they should get the card back just to send it to another person? If I just give them the card back, then someone else will get a fake card! So I as the recipient open the BTR because the card is fake! How should the deckbox team handle that?

The problem is that you're implicitly assuming that the seller knows the card is fake and is trying to scam people. What if the person doesn't know it's a fake? Or worse, what if the card is real but the receiver doesn't know how to properly judge older cards? I received a Karakas in a trade that I was convinced was fake until people told me that the printing pattern I saw on the card was actually a sign that the card was real, not vice versa.

I think opening a BTR or forum post to alert people of a potential fake is totally justified. If the mods see a post about John Smith trading a fake mox, and then a month later see a second post about the same John Smith and the same fake mox, then it's suddenly a lot more clear that some action can be taken.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

elpablo wrote:

The deckbox moderators shouldn't be in the business of policing the community.  It creates a liability for them.

Pretty much this. Everyone approaches issues like this from the perspective of "well, I would never scam anyone, but what about him?" while not realizing the irony of everyone else saying the exact same thing. We're already sticking expensive cardboard into envelopes and mailing them around the world, there has to be at least some level of trust or the whole system falls apart.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

PhyrexianLibrarian wrote:
jassi007 wrote:
PhyrexianLibrarian wrote:

In that situation, I would send back the fake card and the trade is undone. We're both out postage, but in my eyes that's no different than if I received any other card that wasn't as described (condition, language, set, etc.). In a sense, a card being "real" is just another property of the card itself.

If the sender says "nope it's real and you're stuck with it now", I'd take my case to the BTR forum along with my evidence.

Lets say as a recipient my concern was that this card would be passed along to another less vigilant member of the community and so I open a BTR because I don't think they should get the card back just to send it to another person? If I just give them the card back, then someone else will get a fake card! So I as the recipient open the BTR because the card is fake! How should the deckbox team handle that?

The problem is that you're implicitly assuming that the seller knows the card is fake and is trying to scam people. What if the person doesn't know it's a fake? Or worse, what if the card is real but the receiver doesn't know how to properly judge older cards? I received a Karakas in a trade that I was convinced was fake until people told me that the printing pattern I saw on the card was actually a sign that the card was real, not vice versa.

I think opening a BTR or forum post to alert people of a potential fake is totally justified. If the mods see a post about John Smith trading a fake mox, and then a month later see a second post about the same John Smith and the same fake mox, then it's suddenly a lot more clear that some action can be taken.

Ok, so when they open a BTR, what do you expect the outcome to be? The fake is sent back, and if the other party receives cards they send them back as well right?

What happens if the other party no longer has some or all of the cards? The deckbox team shouldn't be community police, I agree, but they have to have some idea of what they're going to do or say when people bring up a situation.

My thought is put a few easy resources in their trade rules (like a link to Wizards page on couterfeit cards) and leave it at that. If someone wants to open a BTR for fake ok obviously they can post, but what should the general expected outcome be?  Like if I ship cards and you don't get them, the general expected outcome is I either send again, or we undo the trade. We don't want the mod to decide if the card is fake, so we are going to trust the recipient and let them unwind the trade right? The sender of the fake card is going to have issue with that unless they didn't receive cards yet.

Last edited by jassi007 (2013-09-12 19:44:38)

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

Deckbox should avoid all involvement in these cases as much as possible, and treat them the same way they would treat a "cards in worse condition than specified" claim. Unwind the trade, everyone gets their cards back, move on. There is no way to prove intent, there is no way to prove authenticity (there are tons of cases of people on eBay buying real items and claiming fakes, then sending back fake items, for example), and it should be left to the individual traders. It is not the admin's job to authenticate cards, they are there to make sure trade issues are resolved and the best resolution in these cases is going to be the unwinding of the trade.

There is no situation where a trader should retain someone else's cards when a trade has been unwound. It leads to a lot of negative territory and there really is no excuse for it.

Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

pwyll wrote:

Deckbox should avoid all involvement in these cases as much as possible, and treat them the same way they would treat a "cards in worse condition than specified" claim. Unwind the trade, everyone gets their cards back, move on. There is no way to prove intent, there is no way to prove authenticity (there are tons of cases of people on eBay buying real items and claiming fakes, then sending back fake items, for example), and it should be left to the individual traders. It is not the admin's job to authenticate cards, they are there to make sure trade issues are resolved and the best resolution in these cases is going to be the unwinding of the trade.

There is no situation where a trader should retain someone else's cards when a trade has been unwound. It leads to a lot of negative territory and there really is no excuse for it.

Totally agreed in all respects.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

pwyll wrote:

Deckbox should avoid all involvement in these cases as much as possible, and treat them the same way they would treat a "cards in worse condition than specified" claim. Unwind the trade, everyone gets their cards back, move on. There is no way to prove intent, there is no way to prove authenticity (there are tons of cases of people on eBay buying real items and claiming fakes, then sending back fake items, for example), and it should be left to the individual traders. It is not the admin's job to authenticate cards, they are there to make sure trade issues are resolved and the best resolution in these cases is going to be the unwinding of the trade.

There is no situation where a trader should retain someone else's cards when a trade has been unwound. It leads to a lot of negative territory and there really is no excuse for it.

I agree with the majority of the quote, but there most certainly are ways to prove cards to be fake. The most that the mods should come to would be judging if the owener of the "fake card" is trying to legitimately scam people out of their cards. For example, if someone opens up a BTR over a fake Mox or whatever, they clear it up with everyone sending their cards back, and then the same trader with the Mox is in another trade for the same situation, then the Moderators should get involved. Obviously, of course, with there being sufficient enough proof that is clearly available and understandable if posted online (such as scans revealing the yellow dots on the carsd.)

In any other situation though, really theirs not much that you could or should be doing. Perhaps mandatory scans for cards valued at $X+, but that should be it.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

I think it would be handy to program it in the feedback to make it possible to let you guys have the information.
Depending on the stats you get from the feedback about fake cards you can decide what could be the next step.
I'm pretty sure that if a user is on Deckbox with trading fake cards in mind the majority of his trades of higher priced cards will be fake and flagged and you will see this in the stats then.
I am sure that if a user really was not aware of the fake card it will be just a one time occurrence in the stats, at least this is what i think.
I would suggest that implementing the feature to report it in the feedback about the trade but not yet flagging will provide the development team after let's say 6 or 12 months with the information on how large this portion is on the website and if there is a need for programming it further.
If you see the scenario as I described above I would suggest to set the flag after several bad trades per trade amount (e.g. : 3 fake cards reported in 5 trades with cards higher then $50).

Regards,
YouryDW

Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

YouryDW wrote:

I think it would be handy to program it in the feedback to make it possible to let you guys have the information.
Depending on the stats you get from the feedback about fake cards you can decide what could be the next step.
I'm pretty sure that if a user is on Deckbox with trading fake cards in mind the majority of his trades of higher priced cards will be fake and flagged and you will see this in the stats then.
I am sure that if a user really was not aware of the fake card it will be just a one time occurrence in the stats, at least this is what i think.
I would suggest that implementing the feature to report it in the feedback about the trade but not yet flagging will provide the development team after let's say 6 or 12 months with the information on how large this portion is on the website and if there is a need for programming it further.
If you see the scenario as I described above I would suggest to set the flag after several bad trades per trade amount (e.g. : 3 fake cards reported in 5 trades with cards higher then $50).

Regards,
YouryDW

Given Sebi's request for feedback, I'm saying this is the first time they've really had an issue with this. If so, is it really worth their development time to program some report as fake function when they can just get the data from the BTR?

I think honestly the whole thing is being a bit overblown. Most of the time cards that are worth faking are traded, it is discovered either beforehand or after and fixed. This is probably the rare case where it got to the point of having to involve a mod.

Last edited by jassi007 (2013-09-15 12:25:45)

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

I am with jassi007  on this topic in all counts.   

There could be traders (especially newbies) that legitimately trade a fake and don't know it, and you want to mark them for it? I think that as long as when the fake is discovered and the one sending the fake makes amends then that should be that. 

Someone who is deliberately sending fakes will get discovered and ratted out (via these forums). Deal with them on a  case by case basis as they come up (which really, I can only see as being a rare thing on this site...trading is much more labour intensive to a true scam artist who is after the cash, not more cards. They are less likely to waste their time in trades when they can sell them...just my humble opinion).

I say don't look for the mountains when there are only mole hills. Concentrate on much more needed features on this site rather than something that may rarely if ever even come up.

Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

Sebi asked for feedback, without discussing particulars of the BTR that prompted this discussion. I think the site could add some helpful "fake cards exist. Here is the info Wizards has on counterfeit cards and how to detect them. Be aware." with the links to Wizards site and leave it at that. If / when a card is suspected of being fake, the default action should be to unwind the trade. If the alleged fake card sender is disagreeable to this, that is a strong point against them. Otherwise, undo the trade and the mods will just have to keep that person in mind.

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Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

A lot of good points and arguments here on all sides, big thank you to all who contributed.

Still thinking about this, but what we will definitely do is add a section in the rules and guidelines that describes the problem and informs people on how to check for fakes. As for the rest of the feature possibilities, we're not too sure yet.

Re: Trading Rules Discussion: Fake cards

With all due respect, I do not think Pwyll or ColtonisWright should be involved in this conversation.  I had a bad trade ($25) over a month ago and I'm still cheesed off about it.  If it was over power I'd be livid until I was moved into a nursing home against my will (then I'd have other things to be pissed about).


http://www.apathyhouse.com/fake/index.php

This seems like a good guide to know about as they give examples of the different tests with images, what to look for and why the tests work. 

TheWaddledeeKing, while there are tests to be performed, what if you (playing the innocent) and I (playing the villain) do a trade; my mox pearl for your mox ruby.  I then take a fake mox pearl that I printed myself and post pictures of it failing tests.

"Thus, deckbox mods, I have shown that Thewaddledeeking is a nefarious scammer and should be tarred and feathered, etc."

Do the mods make us unwind the trade?  You get back a slightly smudged and bent mox pearl and whatever negative repercussions the mod think up while I increase my moxen count for a song and dance and you're none the wiser. 

This could also allow for people to unwind trades if they change their mind past the point of no return. 

I don't think the mods can design a comprehensive feature or rule to get all cases of this (admittedly rare) situation.