Topic: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

I've been toying with putting together a Maddening Imp deck for a good while now, ever since I first saw the card.  I love the idea of destroying my opponent's creatures with a well-timed tap, and Ensnaring Bridge was the obvious combination to use...but since I hate direct-damage decks, I wasn't sure how to do it.  Originally I was planning to use Shatter to eliminate the Ensnaring Bridge after eliminating my foe's army, but felt it was too inefficient a tactic for proper play, so that idea was out.  Then it hit me - 0 Power creatures!  Even with an empty hand, they'd be able to attack, and one can pump the crap out of them to deal the damage.  So armed with an idea, this is what I came up with:

http://deckbox.org/sets/190410

I went with a Black/Red build based on my initial build...since I wanted to destroy the bridge with Shatter, Red was almost a required choice, and although Shatter was eventually discarded as a plan, I still liked having Shunt in the deck (really, who sees a red counterspell coming?).  Anyway, I'm more or less settled on the build, but since I've been out of the loop a few years (still played, just never bought new cards), I'm not really sure what has come out in some of the more recent sets that may be better than what's listed.  I also really don't know what to add to the sideboard...the deck has an obvious weakness against Wall decks (Maddening Imp doesn't affect Walls), and although they're not really commonplace, I still feel a sideboard that includes Pyroclasm is a must...just in case.  I just don't know what other problems would come up, and since I'm missing a number of the cards, I can't really test before I buy.  Also, I'm not adverse to altering the mana base, I just generally go with an even split and tweak it after a few games if needed.  Badlands would be an obvious addition as well, but I don't have any, and don't have any desire to spend the money required to get them.

*AHEM*

Sorry, I tend to ramble.  I'm sure you get the idea here...basic tweaks and sideboard ideas, and general feedback...that's pretty much it.  Thanks smile

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

I'm personally into using 0 drops if you like the idea of 0 power creatures; Kobolds of Kher Keep, Crimson Kobolds, Crookshank Kobolds, Ornithopter, and phyrexian walker, Shield Sphere has defender so it wouldn't help. Now all the creatures you're using have some sort of fire-breathing effect so that's pretty important and none of the cards I mentioned so so I recommend Captive Flame because it's efficient, plus if you're running 0 drops your hand will be empty in no time at all. I would also consider at least side-boarding Moonveil Dragon as a one of since it's so efficient, under the right circumstances you could have this out T2 and that would be epic. I also prefer wild ricochet to shunt because it's more flexible and it gives you a second copy of the spell all for just one more mana

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

This looks like an amusing concept deck.  I like the idea that Maddening Imp can force them all to attack and then you can wipe them out.  The zero power, pumpable creatures are good, but I see some problems.

I'm guessing that you're aiming for casual play?  Do you envision just one-on-one games or multiplayer?

First, what do you do if you don't draw both Maddening Imp and Ensnaring Bridge?  Or even worse, if they blow up one (or both) of those?  I can easily see where Ensnaring Bridge is a target that would draw some serious ire.  If that combo gets cleared out, you're sitting on a bunch of tiny (admittedly pumpable) creatures trying to fend off your opponent - not exactly a scenario I would want to face.

Second, for Ensnaring Bridge to really be effective, your hand has to be empty.  I can see how the low casting cost of everything will help you get there, but do you have any plans to speed up your dropping cards?

Third, as an alternative to Ensnaring Bridge, you could include Norn's Annex.  You don't need to include white as you can play it by paying life and then you can force them to attack and they either drop their creatures or take two damage per.  Then you just need some means to block their creatures.  Wall of Shadows works well in this scenario.

Fourth, as a potential game winner, Dingus Staff helps so that you don't really need to pump your creatures.

As you can see, there are a lot of ways to run with this.  My thought would be to move to a more defensive deck that really plays up the Maddening Imp combo.  This means including blockers galore, means to tap their creatures so the imp will kill them (i.e. Word of Binding and Icy Manipulator), and measures to bring the imps back into play (as the more recent players will exile them as opposed to destroying them).  Shunt does this to some degree, but you would do well to figure out added ways to protect them.

Anyway, I'll stop there, let me know what you think about what I've said thus far and we can go from there.

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

imsully2 - I actually considered including 0-drop creatures, but felt that it wouldn't really work too well overall...I would want to have 0 cards in my hand when using the imp's ability, so in order for me to use an instant-boost type spell, I would have to have it in my hands...and with no way to draw extra cards and no way to guarantee the order of the cards I do draw, and since hanging onto them would be counterproductive to the deck's main purpose, and with enchantments it kills the element of surprise, so I figure why use two spells costing a total of three mana (assuming Captive Flame on an Ornithopter) when I can simply play Flamekin Brawler for one mana and have the effect already included...although it does open up some other possible options.  As for Moonveil Dragon, I just don't feel I have enough mana acceleration to really make use of it.  Experience tells me to avoid high casting cost creatures unless I have the acceleration to bring it out reasonably early.  I may consider Wild Ricochet for the sideboard though, since the duplicating effect would be awesome against spells to gain life, or spells to remove creatures/enchantments, etc, but would be entirely redundant against a counterspell (and cost more to cast it).  However, if the deck I'm facing has removal up the wazoo, it would be a great addition.

TyWooOneTime - You're correct in your assumption that it's mainly for casual play.  It's just an idea I've been toying with that I would like to actually use.  It will primarily be a duel deck, as I don't really know enough people who play to get good multiplayer games going anyway.
I love the idea of using Norn's Annex instead of Ensnaring Bridge!  It would really allow a bit of flexibility to the deck to help against the possibility of removal or simply not getting the combo...if I don't hit the combo, instead of low power creatures I could include bigger options.  Not too worried about having an empty hand, I usually have no issues with that when I've run Ensnaring Bridge decks with low casting cost spells, but it allows me to save useful spells for when I need them instead of having to burn through them to keep my hand empty...very good call!
With regard to Dingus Staff, it seems to serve the same purpose as Blood Artist, in that when creatures die, damage is dealt.  However, with Blood Artist, I don't have to worry if they use a Wrath of God to deal with my creatures, as every creature killed will inflict damage upon my chosen target instead of on the creature's controller.  With the current build, it was simply meant to help weaken my opponent so I could still defeat them if I had a limited amount of mana to pump my creatures with.
Unfortunately though, Word of Binding won't work with the imp, since it's a Sorcery.  Icy Manipulator is an option, but at most that accounts for 4 creatures, and could only reasonably expect to get one or two out at most.  Something like Word of Binding that would work at instant speed would be perfect.

Some great suggestions though, really gets me thinking about this.  If I can get something to ensure that anything getting past Norn's Annex will be dealt with (Darkness comes to mind, especially if the opponent has no white mana and has to pay the life instead), and would make it easier to get a backup win condition (maybe Pyroclasm to take further advantage of Blood Artist's ability)...plenty to think about here...

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

Captive Flame is a world Enchantment so it gives all of your creatures the ability not just one

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

So it is...for some reason I read that as "Enchant Creature."  Guess that's a far better suggestion than I had initially thought.  Actually, that does indeed give me some far better options with regard to my choice of creatures...it either makes the freebies that much better, or it makes a powerless creature with an ability that costs a bit more that much more useful in the deck.  It really would open an array of options for me...I'm very sorry I missed that!

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

It's no biggy, if it had been enchant creature my advice would've been absolutely terrible, as it stands I'm not really sure which is better since if you do go with captive flame and don't draw it early it could be really risky, also with the annex I wouldn't use one or the other, I'd use both since the Annex is good but in all likelihood they're going to have something big enough that attacking does more damage to you than them, I would suggest using it as a 2 of

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

So, like, 2 of each instead of 4 of one or the other?  I figure if I use the Maddening Imp to force an attack, and am running Norn's Annex in place of Ensnaring Bridge, I would also have to run something like Darkness to ensure that I could survive the attack.  In such a case, maybe Tsabo's Decree might have a place in the deck (or sideboard, either or).  I'm hesitant to go with it because, although awesome against Tribal decks, it does nothing for me against decks with a variety of creature types.  I think Darkness would still be the way to go in that situation.  I'm hesitant to run both the Annex and the Bridge though...either I want to go with boostable creatures and the Bridge, or the Annex and a way to deal with the damage coming back my way.  If I run both, I run the risk of trying to do too many different things and having a hard time getting what I need to win.

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

I was saying keep 4 of the bridge and add two Annexes as a precaution, incase they manage to wipe out your bridges but if you'd like to go with a Annex build instead that works as well, however in that case I would recommend not using any of the bridges because it shuts down your own annex. If you want to use this build I would consider figuring out something that can be used as a win condition without the Imp since those could get taken out

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

My thought would be to have three of both the Annex and Bridge.  Unless you run into someone worried a LOT about artifacts, you should have your arse covered.  Darkness will help cover you in a pinch, but I would go with regenerating blockers like Will-o-the-Wisp.  To the extent that you can make them pay life to come at you and then simply stall their attack, you're winning that exchange.

The second rationale for having both is that you're doubly covered.  With the bridge you can stall all attacking unless you want to, at which point you just draw your hand up a few cards and go to town.  And even once you do that, the Annex has your back.

For the Imps, I would say to move the deck more toward creature retrieval (Bone Harvest, Animate Dead, Unburial Rites, Sheoldred, Whispering One, etc.) such that if they kill the imps, you can just get them back.  Then you really just have to worry about if they exile them.  You can also play into th

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

I'm still not sold on running both the Annexes and the Bridges in the same build...I like to shoot for simplicity in my builds.  However, chump blockers like Will-o'-the-Wisp are definitely an option I failed to explore previously.  The Wisps would even be suited to either style build (either 0 power creatures to pump, in this case via Captive Flame, or for the baiting/paying of life from the Annex).  As for retrieval, I would go with either Necromancy or Shallow Grave, depending on the circumstances.  If the opponent has targeted removal and kills my imps, I can simply cast Shallow Grave during their turn and tap the Imps.  I could also use Necromancy to steal their dead creatures either as a sorcery on my own turn or as a means to gain an extra blocker if needed (from either graveyard).  I don't think I'd want to run both, but having one in the deck and one as a sideboard card to swap removal types.  Animate Dead would also work well for the Ensnaring Bridge version...not only could I bring the Maddening Imp back into play, but suddenly it could attack as well, since it would be a 0/1 creature.  And if there is no removal in their deck, with any of them I could simply use their own creatures against them (in either possible build).

I'm thinking about making the following alterations:

OUT:
4x Flamekin Brawler
4x Blistering Dieflyn
4x Kiln Walker

IN:
4x Will-o'-the-Wisp
4x Captive Flame
4x Ornithopter

SIDEBOARD:
4x Darkness
4x Shallow Grave
3x Breaking Point
4x Animate Dead

I'm also wondering if Dark Ritual would really be necessary, but I'm going to leave it in for the time being.  I decided to sideboard some reanimation instead of putting it in the main deck because, well, it may not really be necessary.  I sideboarded Darkness and Breaking Point in case I need to stall, but since I won't know how well everything works until it's built, it may not be necessary (and hopefully I find the real weaknesses in play testing to deal with them later).  Breaking Point provides a bit of damage as well when paired with Blood Artist.  As for the main deck changes, I went with 0-power fliers instead of the land based assault I had initially built, and added Captive Flame so I could pump them.  I figure with fliers, I don't have to worry if I can't get the imps out, so long as I have enough mana to pump the chumps to deal lethal damage (or use them to whittle away the opponent over a few turns).  Just figure I'll see what you both think before I make the changes official and start hunting for the cards I don't have smile

On a side note, thanks to both of you for your suggestions.  Even the ideas I didn't roll with have some merit, and have sparked ideas for a few new decks, either directly (Norn's Annex) or indirectly (noticed several awesome cards I never would have looked at otherwise while looking for options).

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

Hmm...while inventorying my cards, I stumbled across another possibility for a Maddening Imp combo...Crawlspace!  Something to consider on a later build, but kind of surprised nobody thought of it tongue

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

I'm glad to be of service.  Be sure to let us know how it works once you have it finalized and play some.

A few added thoughts.  I don't see why not to run both the Annex and the Bridge.  With both, and even including Crawlspace, you can really make sure that you're covered while also giving yourself more freedom and security.  If you have just the bridge, they could destroy it and come at you.  At which point those chump blockers might not be enough.  Similarly, with just the Annex, if they have enough life, they might just deal with it and come at you.  With both you have the luxury of completely shutting them down with the bridge (and being covered by the Annex if they destroy the bridge) OR you can draw your hand back up to a workable number while still knowing the Annex will keep you mostly safe.  If you prefer Crawlspace over the Annex, it might work, again that'll be a matter of playtesting, but given that the imp-attacker destruction is the key combo, why not add some more ways to make it work (also then they might not be so quick to catch on and won't target the bridge/annex/crawlspace so quickly.

Realistically, I don't think you'll need Dark Ritual in the deck as the highest casting cost for anything is what? Three? Four?  Unless you're dying to get Ensnaring Bridge out on the very first turn, you should be fine without them.  I would argue the same goes for Manaforge Cinder.  I can see where you'd be worried about getting stuck with only one color, but you have it evenly divided and the most of a single symbol I'm seeing is two red for Shunt.  The only real benefit I can see for the Cinders now is to let you funnel your black mana into the Captive Flame, at which point you could probably drop to two Cinders.

Lastly, and herein lies the challenge for which there is no easy solution.  Do you need any sort of drawing engine to help you along once you get top decked?  It's clear with the Bridge that you want to keep your hand down, but you also want to be sure that you're not lagging behind only dropping one card per turn while they're going to town (also some drawing assistance could help ensure the likelihood that you pick up the needed cards for the combo).  Imsully might have some different suggestions, but I'm a big fan of Mad Prophet and Elixir of Immortality (which you could fit in if you drop the Dark Rits and two Cinders).  Those let you burn through cards at a much faster rate, but you can use the Elixirs (and I stress plural there) to ensure that your library will never run out (at least not by your own hand).

Anyway, best of luck with it.  I look forward to hearing good things!

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.  I looked into the rulings for Shunt available at:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/ … eid=130362

Sadly it looks like you could not use this on a Counterspell or something of that sort unless there is another spell yet to be resolved, as it says under the sixth ruling that if there is no other legal target, it does not redirect.  Still a great spell to save your creatures from various removal, but if you were hoping to stop counter magic, it doesn't look like it will work sad

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

Actually, I can...

10/4/2004: You can choose to make a spell on the stack target this spell (if such a target choice would be legal had the spell been cast while this spell was on the stack). The new target for the deflected spell is not chosen until this spell resolves. This spell is still on the stack when new targets are selected for the spell.

In other words, if someone plays Counterspell, and I cast Shunt and declare Shunt as the new target, it's perfectly legal.  What happens is Counterspell is on the stack, then Shunt goes on the stack after.  Then Shunt resolves first, and when the Counterspell resolves, there is no valid target, causing it to fizzle.

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

Interesting... or you could just go with Reverberate which is one cheaper, copy the Counterspell/Cancel/Mana Leak and target their Counterspell/Cancel/Mana Leak.  Then when the stack resolves, their spell is countered.

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

I was actually considering the exact same thing.  I just was thinking about what would be more versatile in the long run.  Reverberate would function against counter magic as well, but against removal it's terrible.  I could copy their Terminate, for example, but my creature would still die as a result...then again, I could copy my OWN instants as well...

Theoretically I could do both...was thinking that Dark Ritual would be pointless outside of the first couple turns, although I still say the Manaforge Cinder is still worth keeping in there as filters.  Gives me more options in case of the dreaded Mana Screw...if all I have is Mountains in play, or Swamps for that matter, at least I'll be able to cast spells from the other color.  Maybe removing Dark Ritual and adding Reverberate is the way to go.  The logic for keeping Shunt is simple - if Counterspell or a similar spell is cast, I can go with Reverberate, but if Unsummon or Boomerang is used, I could still use Shunt to change targets to another valid target...or I could use it to steal a beneficial creature enchantment, or other options that Reverberate can't do.

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

So I've applied the modifications I mentioned, then tried the sample hand generator to see how it all worked.  It seems that it may be harder to make work with the Captive Flame option than with the creatures that have the pump ability built-in.  Debating whether to add some Diabolic Tutors to the deck or to just revert those changes back to the way it was originally.  I will likely keep out the Dark Rituals in favor of Reverberate though...there's no need for the extra mana, and Reverberate is such a boon to the deck that it really should be there.  Going to leave it as is so you guys can check it out and see what I mean here, but I think I may stick with the original creatures instead of Captive Flame...unless you can think of some pumpable 0-power fliers...

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

http://mtgsalvation.com/magic-2013-m13-spoiler.html#Red

Dragon Hatchling in the upcoming 2013 core would work nicely.  One red and one colorless for a 0/1 pumpable flyer.

Beyond that, I wouldn't worry about pumping everything, as things like the Will-o-the-Wisp are just there for defensive purposes.  Other options would be to include things like Orcish Oriflamme that will pump the attacking creatures after they're already going without having to pay to pump them.

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

I would even suggest reducing numbers for a few cards down to two or three to make room for some substitutions.

For instance:

3x Blood Artist
3x Ornithopter
2x Manaforge Cinder
2x Captive Flame
3x Ensnaring Bridge

That would free up seven card slots to put in some other items:

2x Norn's Annex
2x Crawlspace

and three of something else... whether it be some of the things you had in here originally, Orcish Oriflamme or something completely different, I'd invite you to fiddle around with it to get a clearer picture of what you're looking for (as I can see where there are a few decks/cards out there that would cause you major problems.  But for casual play, this looks pretty mean at current and I'm sure 3x of something (maybe a bigger creature in case things get drawn out) could make this even better.

I used to be a hardcore 4x cards guy until more recently when I've discovered that 2x and 3x lead to much more diverse, flexible decks that can adapt better on the fly.  What you lose in complete consistency, you pick up in other places.

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

You do raise a good point.  I'd rather keep the Manaforge Cinders at 4, but other than that I kind of like the idea.  I still am not convinced of Norn's Annex being a great fit, but it'd be worth a trial run...if nothing else, it puts 5 chances at hitting the combo (via either the Ensnaring Bridges or the Annexes) instead of 4 (with just the Bridges).  I also looked around a bit, and found Raid Bombardment, which I think would be a better fit here than Orcish Oriflamme would be...it triggers during the declare attackers step, so a creature could be pumped up after the attack is declared and still count towards it, whereas the Oriflamme only pumps the creatures up.  I'm thinking of taking your advice on diversifying the deck a bit, but going with this:

OUT
1x Blood Artist
1x Ornithopter
1x Captive Flame
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Animate Dead (sideboard)
1x Shallow Grave (sideboard)

IN
2x Norn's Annex (kind of a trial run, may increase or change it again if it doesn't work out, but worth a shot)
2x Raid Bombardment
2x Crawlspace (sideboard)

Thoughts?

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

Looks good.  Let it run and see how things go from there.  You can make more changes later as the need arises.

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

Modifications applied. Next step: tracking down the cards I don't have...

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

I would recommend looking on tgcplayer.com (the site the pricing is through on Deckbox).  Just click through one of the cards you're looking for and on the solo card page down at the bottom are price listings.  I normally fill in as many cards as I can regardless of the vendor for as cheap as possible and then you can use their "optimizer" software that figures out which vendors to go through to minimize shipping costs and such.  I typically go with lightly played/slightly played/near mint in my options for the optimizer as you maximize your odds of finding the cards through only one or two vendors.  I've found that when purchasing singles you can actually expect things to fall closer to the low price given than the average or high (unless you're big on foils).

My only other suggestions would be to look at www.channelfireball.com or www.starcitygames.com.

With any luck, you'll find things pretty quickly and easily (as long as you're not hunting for anything really dated like from Odyssey).

Re: Maddening Imp deck needs tweaks and sideboard...

Well, my first step is to go local.  I have a couple friends that play that I can trade with, and there's a couple shops that have a decent inventory.  Once the local resources are exhausted I can start looking into online resourses.  If nothing else, I'm sure I could get a decent return on the Lion's Eye Diamond I stumbled across while inventorying my cards tongue  Love finding good rares hiding in a box of commons tongue