Topic: Aiding New Players During Play, What's the Proper Ettiquette?

Hello All, this is my first post here, so please forgive the length.  I know it is too long, and it won't happen again in the future...

A little background on the circumstances which led to this question, as they may help you understand the situation better, because they establish the setting, as well as the personalities of the people involved.  However, this background is not absolutely essential to your understanding, so if you feel its TL;DR then just skip the next paragraph and move directly on to the third.

I  was first introduced to MtG around 1996 or 1997, during which time I would have been 9 or 10.  I played pretty enthusiastically until about 1999, eventually losing interest and allowing my cards to collect dust because I could not develop a deeper understanding of the mechanics and was not able to develop a cohesive strategy for play or for deckbuilding.  I would play games here and there, off and on for about 10 years, when I momentarily regained interest around 2009, 2010, 2011 when I learned a few new friends played and felt I could jump back into playing without much difficulty, on account of my previous (albeit limited) experience.  Unfortunately these friends did not live close enough to me that I was able to play very often.  Over the two or three years I played at that point we probably played less than 20 games in total.  Worse than that, most of the times we did play I decided to drink and smoke bud, which was a great way to have fun, but meant that I was not in a headspace where I could learn anything meaningful about the way the game is played, the strategies people can and do employ, or really anything that could be considered a skill as applied to playing Magic.  In other words, at this point the only things I really understood about playing MtG were the rules, a general feeling about the flow of play, and the bare minimum about strategy that is laid out in the starter guide included in every pack of cards you would purchase from the store: "use mana to summon creatures, attack your enemies with your creatures, use your spells to enhance your own creatures, or give yourself life, or to hinder your opponent's creatures or take their life"...   The friends I was playing with ended up moving away, and I again took a hiatus from playing, a hiatus which I have just, within the last month, decided to come out of.  Thank God for being locked indoors for months on end, because I pulled my decks out of storage and have decided to (finally) get serious about learning how to play Magic properly, i.e. to actually learn strategies that are applicable to the formats I am interested in playing, to learn the general methods of play employed each of the five single color deck-types, as well as those employed by the various possible multicolor deck types, and then to apply that knowledge to deckbuilding so I can have an inventory of decks of various colors, employing various strategies in order to have a variety of decks at my disposal, ultimately allowing me to play more often and with a wider sample of other players, building on my knowledge and having more fun as I continue to progress and hone this craft, which, despite never having the discipline to commit to it in the past, I have always loved and which has always felt magical to me (no pun intended).  So the point of this (sorry) ungodly word of text that I have started my post off with, is to explain that I have a pretty firm grasp on the most basic of MtG rules.  I have not, however, ever really had a good understanding of the finer details of game play, and those skills which only develop after years of dedicated play are something I have never possessed (but I hope to, someday in the future).  That being said, I encountered a situation last week that I need clarification on from the community at large.


OFFICIAL START OF POST
Last week I was playing my third game of Magic after a hiatus of nearly a decade.  It was a four person game, consisting of me, my best friend (who similarly knows the basics of Magic, but plays infrequently and does not consider himself dedicated to the craft or a die hard enthusiast), our good friend (a dedicated, enthusiastic, decades-long player who has competed in tournaments and, if I remember correctly, has placed in a tournament. I don't know the size, number of players, location, etc, but I imagine the feat of placing is impressive nonetheless.  My point in bringing it up is simply to say "he is, no doubt about it, a damn good player"), and finally, a female friend of the "damn-good player" who was being introduced to me and my best friend for the first time (our friend said to us, more or less, "Hey guys, this is my friend, ______."  I would later learn this was an understatement, to say the least, but I'll save that part for a little later).  To help keep everyone straight, my name in this scenario will be John, my best friend will be Adam, our good-friend-and-expert-Magic-player will be Josh and the female friend of Josh will be Catlin. 

So, this game was Catlin's first.  She had never played before, and based on what she was saying it sounded like she had never seen a game of Magic played before either.  Nothing wrong with that, of course, the point is just that she was a brand-new recruit, a total newbie, whereas Josh was a storied expert, and me and Adam were long-time, well established novices.  We begin playing a Vintage game, and were treating it somewhat casual in terms of not being super strict with the rules.  To account for the two novices and one newbie among the four of us it was decided that we'd be given some leeway in regards to the usual strict timing of player moves, such that, if one of us forgot to either untap, do anything during upkeep, draw, or play a land, we would be allowed to correct the mistake until the end of the next phase, provided such a move would not alter play to a degree so extreme that we would be in a completely different circumstance when the effects of the mistake were resolved.  I realize that's worded in a pretty confusing way, and I'll clarify in a follow up post if anyone wants me to, but its not pertinent to the question I have, so I won't expand on it at the moment.  Anyways, we get to playing, and Josh is guiding Caitlin through the game, explaining the steps to her, "OK, this is your upkeep phase... now its your draw phase..." etc.  Nothing wrong there.  Par for the course in terms of teaching a newbie to play, as far as I'm concerned.

However, within a few turns, this coaching of the newbie takes a turn into new territory.  Josh and Caitlin are playing with their hands totally exposed to one another, and our master-level player Josh is explaining and "recommending" (read: telling) Caitlin what to do every turn, employing well-thought out, intricate strategies that neither I nor Adam would have thought of, truly the mind of a master at work here.  Adam and I comment several times, "Come on, Josh, you can't be helping her that much." and Caitlin is replying, "No, but he's really helping me to understand the game!"  and Josh saying more or less the same thing.  I start to realize at this point that Caitlin is not just simply a friend of Josh's but a romantic prospect (This was confirmed later that night, after the game had concluded, not a case of reading too much into things, for those who were wondering).  I'm not sure if Adam knew this before this point or not, but it was clear halfway into this game that that's what the situation was.  Not wanting to mess up his game (pun definitely intended), we try not to raise to much of a fuss as Josh continues to play the game for Caitlin.  Without exaggeration, believe me when I say there were at least two times during this game, although it may have been four, where Caitlin was so overwhelmed by the information Josh was telling her about how to play and the considerations she should have as she makes a move that she looks at me and Adam and says something to the effect of, "I'm have no idea what's going on, I'm just gonna do this 'cause he [Josh] say's that's what I should do."  Adam and I made similar comments to those we made before, "Josh, that's too much, you can't be helping her to that extent," but it didn't have any effect.  Josh and Caitlin just defended their actions as being necessary in order for Caitlin to play at all.  Adam and I both think, "That's bullsh*t" but don't raise a fuss as our friend is trying to have a good time with a girl he likes and we don't want to mess that up over something as petty as a game.  "Good for him," we're thinking to ourselves, though we're both silently incensed that we're both losing to a newbie because Josh is actually playing in her place and she's practically not even participating, except to listen to Josh explain what he's going to do for her each turn.

By the end of the game Caitlin was the second to last to die, she nearly won the game.  It was a ridiculous game to play, hardly any fun as Josh's coaching of her left nary a crack in her defense, and she took advantage of every opportunity to maximize damage to her opponents, which, unsurprisingly, were limited to Adam and me until the two of us were eliminated.  In retrospect, I'm happy for my buddy, who was able to show his prospective girlfriend a good time playing Magic, especially since the first game of MtG that a person plays can, and often is, brutal.  In my experience first time players, if they're playing experienced players and they are not given any consideration to their lack of skill, can suffer a loss so extreme that their turned off from the game entirely, deciding to throw in the towel and move on to "something easier."  On the other hand, though, I am about ready to throw in the towel myself if Josh and Caitlin are going to be playing, as they have indicated they want to continue playing with me and Adam and have not acknowledged that playing in the way they do is not fair to the other players, and is kind of just messed up on a fundamental level. 

It would be different if Josh were not someone who has played consistently for decades and participated (and maybe placed? again I'm not 100% sure on that) in tournaments, but the way it is now me and Adam are essentially playing two versions of Josh simultaneously.  Believe me, its hard enough to play one version of Josh as it is.  For example, when he was without his deck last week (before the day Caitlin came over) he was able to absolutely wreck Adam and me with a preconstructed Stronghold-era deck (Rath cycle, I think) within 6 or 7 turns.  No preparation, just jumped right into it and took us out no problem.


SO:
My questions are
: is the behavior I mentioned considered a breach of etiquette?  If so, how egregious is it?  Should any consideration be given to the fact that this was, for all intents and purposes, a date for Josh and Caitlin, even if they're not calling it that, and if I don't want to step on his toes/cock-block him by calling out what I see as BS, how can I prevent that type of behavior from him in the future?  Adam doesn't seem to want to breech the subject with Josh, being pretty non-confrontational, but I can't play another game like that with them, it was maddening.  Is my best bet, perhaps, to just not play with Josh and Caitlin, at least until Caitlin knows the game well enough to play without Josh's input?

Thank you for taking the time to read this.  Again, this is my first post here, so I don't have a good feel for the community and what things are probably already understood, and need no explanation on my part.

Last edited by Malocoran (2020-09-19 07:51:12)

Re: Aiding New Players During Play, What's the Proper Ettiquette?

"is the behavior I mentioned considered a breach of etiquette?"
No.

Honestly. Why are you worried about this? Its fine.

You are teaching someone to play the game. You can go over rules over and over again all you want and 99.99% of people will still not get a full grasp of a game until they are in the thick of the game and really get to see things applied. It is how people learn. If you were in her shoes and not understanding the game at all you might feel better having someone do exactly what Josh is doing. Should he have been a bit more hands off and let her make mistakes? Yes because we only truly learn in failure, but for a first game to have someone walk you through it is a good thing. Just imagine the flip side where she goes in and is thrown to the wolves. Most people would not have a good experience and might be turned off of the game forever. Here you might get a new friend to play with and upgrading your meta.

I play board games and I see it a lot where people are confused on what to do, especially when there are even novice levels of people around and they are new. I have seen plenty of times where I have explained the rules of a game to smart board game players and given them some small strategies and they turn around and basically just mimic my tutorial strategies because it is so much to take in at one time and I have just spent 20 minutes going over the basics of a game. And remember this is someone explaining a 6-page rule book to people around familiar with the hobby and then on the other hand you have Magic's Comprehensive Rules and after 25 years of playing Magic I still have to stop of really think about or look stuff up.

So you get one to a small handful of games ruined by teaching people. That is not a bad thing. Once those people learn everyone will be better for it.

Re: Aiding New Players During Play, What's the Proper Ettiquette?

Fair enough.  Thanks for taking the time to answer.  It helps having the opinion of someone not associated with the group to keep things in perspective.