If I had a Nicol for every time...

So I've revised things a bit.  You're right that most of the real winners in this deck would take FOREVER to play out the traditional way.  To address this, I've figured out a solution, Jhoira of the Ghitu.  When paired with Nightscape Familiar, she can come out on turn three.  Then on turn four you're already suspending the BIG creatures or even Planeswalker Nicol (or from the look of things, ANYTHING you want in the deck outside of lands).  Then you can also play with Jhoira's Timebug to drop those time counters with the quickness.  So if you drop her on turn three, turn four Nicol is suspended and you put down a Timebug (or two).  Turn five and you're already down two suspend counters.  That means by turn six, you have Nicol out, potentially with something else in the suspend queue.

I'm looking at Clockspinning as a potential good one here, as multiples of it could not only help with the suspend, but add counters to Nicol when he hits the field (such that by the second turn he's on the battlefield he's dropping his major ability).  But I'm not sure where the space will come from.  I'm hesitant to drop anything else as I REALLY don't want to lose the defensive control that is in there already.  Timecrafting could be an alternative too.  Paradox Haze and Fury Charm are added options.  But I'm not entirely sure I want to change the entire theme of the deck to Jhoira and suspend based stuff.

Imsully, I looked at Nicol Bolas vs. Crosis, the Purger and you're right, it's not really a comparison.  Nicol (old school) leads to automatic hand discard as opposed to Crosis' half-assed version.  Good call there.  I will say, however, that I've deviated away from the discarding mechanics for the most part.  Nicol's (old school) ability is just an added perk for a 7/7 flyer that helps me win the game.

Alright, I don't know that I've ever done such a serious overhaul of a deck between comments, but here we go.

You're dead on about Mishra, Artificer Prodigy.  I had one in when I first started fiddling with this but couldn't justify using it.  Now I've changed things up a fair bit so that he would prove useful. 

First off, the mechanics of the deck are shaped more around Jhoira than before.  While you're spot on about the usefulness of the Timebugs, I've decided to knock them down to two in exchange for four Paradox Haze.  By giving myself additional upkeeps, I can take the suspend counters off as many things as I have suspended, not just one thing at a time.  With multiple of them out, I'll REALLY be pumping things out quickly.

Given that I'll have multiple upkeeps, what else can I use to benefit there?  Well, Venser's Journal is a definite plus as it will help me gain life each upkeep (so 2x or 3x or 4-5x if I have multiple Hazes out).  But if I'm suspending my whole hand, I won't have one without drawing, right?  Well that's where Mishra and  Paradox Haze can help, as they both pair well with the 2x Shrine of Piercing Vision.  Mishra helps me put both of them out and they get additional counters for each upkeep (which will be quite a few quite quickly).  I can sack them one at a time and get a buttload of added cards.  The question is, are you familiar of a card that will let me return artifacts from my graveyard to play or to my hand consistently (hopefully without sacrificing it)?  That's currently the only reason I have Elixir of Immortality in here, is to recycle the Shrines and Tutors.

You're right, this is a pretty narrow spread and will need a few key cards to work, so I've maintained 2x Nightscape Familiar to reduce U-B-R casting costs, but I've also added 2x Demonic Tutor to ensure that I'll be able to get Jhoira of the Ghitu (which is further helped by the fact I have two of them in the deck.  To protect her, I've installed 3x Elgaud Shieldmate to give her (and any other big creature) hexproof.  However, I'd happily remove one of them for another big creature that's worthwhile.

A few other things. 

First, I don't run into counter magic very often in my casual group, but I would imagine I will if I play this casually at my LCS.  What would I pull to put in my own counter magic?  I like Terminate to just drop whatever creature I like.  Chainer's Edict forces them to sacrifice their creature (bite me shroud and indestructible!) and I can buy it back.  Pyroclasm gives me the light board clearing effect.  And Cruel Ultimatum is among the power cards of the deck worth using suspend on.  Does Mundungu provide a sufficient deterrent as it will cost one more mana AND one life to cast their spell?  Or should I just go for the more traditional Counterspell/Cancel/Negate/Mana Leak route?

Second, I feel like there's a LOT in here to make and protect this suspend mechanic, but not a lot that I'm actually using it to play out.  Between Nicol Bolas, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Prince of Thralls, and Cruel Ultimatum, I'm only using this huge suspend move for a total of seven cards.  Surely there has to be SOMETHING epic out there that I'm forgetting that would work here (and I'm not thinking Eldrazi because those are tied up in another deck).  It just seems like such a waste to have half the deck based on a mechanic for so few cards.

Third, what are some other ways I can benefit from having multiple upkeeps?  I already have a life gain in Venser's Journal and a means to draw added cards with the Shrines.  But what else can I rock in there?  It again seems like a waste to put forth that much effort toward an effect that I'm not getting THAT much out of.

I'll stop there as this is really just a creative enterprise for the moment, but if we can figure out something cool, I'll definitely rock this deck often.

All suggestions welcome.

Very true.  I guess I could go with a Diabolic Tutor (just sucks to pay double for the same effect) .

I'll admit, I didn't look through the entire deck list yet, but I did think about the Bringer of the Black Dawn.  The problems I forsee though is that a) with only one of each, you need to make sure you can get at least one out, if not both (two Tutors is not enough in my mind to do this), and b) getting enough mana to cast the Bringers (you may have this worked out, so if you do, feel free to disregard).  I'm not sure the best way to solve a) at this time, but the others I have some fairly easy options.  For b), you can simply add something like Darksteel Ingot to use the 5-mana alternate cost for the Bringers, or use Composite Golems.  Pentad Prism may be another option.  Pretty much anything that allows you to get Green or White mana to ease the casting cost of the Bringers would be a viable option (as I said, if you haven't worked this out already).

Wizard:  imsully hit it spot on with the use of Jhoira of the Ghitu.  What appears to be the key card in this whole deck is no longer Mr. Bolas , but Paradox Haze which is sooooo nice, as it's willing to give me additional upkeeps.  When Jhoira suspends things, the added upkeeps let me take the suspend counters off faster, meaning that I essentially can cast anything in my hand for two colorless.

imsully:  As reluctant as you might think me to be with the Amulet of Vigor, I actually toyed with the idea of yanking it last night and still am.  With only one, really the likelihood I have it in my opening hand isn't that good to give me the added convenience of untapping all my lands when I play them out.  I like what it does, but I think you're right that another Venser's Journal makes a lot more sense.

With regard to Bringer of the Red Dawn, sure, I could use his ability to take and attack with their creatures, but Mr. Bolas let's me take and keep them.  I like Magmatic Force in the sense that I get the multiple upkeep thing going while essentially getting Inferno Titan's ability.  To that end, I think Bringer of the Blue Dawn could work out even better than Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur in the long run, as he's a bigger creature, pairs with the Bringer of the Black Dawn sooo well, and also plays into my multiple upkeep mechanic (think, with only 2x Paradox Haze out, I would be drawing seven cards per turn anyway).  It sucks that I would lose the opponent hand reduction, but I don't know that I'd be so worried about the opponent's hand at that point as the two Dawns would help me go find whatever cards I want and then draw them immediately.

I'd love to use Vampiric Tutor but sadly do not have one and don't want to drop ANOTHER $17-20 on a single card.

Any thoughts on the counter magic?  Again, I don't see so much of it, but I could easily see where playing outside my group would result in me getting screwed on that front.

the_wizard, ideally you would have 3 hazes out because then you could activate Jhoria's ability during your opponent's turn since it's instant speed, then you would have 4 upkeeps immediately after and end up with what you cast right away, however in practice you're quite right, most of the time they will be able to see the move way before it happens.

I can agree about the blue bringer working a little nicer, especially with the price comparison

I completely agree about the Vampiric Tutor, I didn't know if you'd have one or not but I thought it was worth suggesting.

for counterspells I'm not really sure, I feel like you need to go up to 70 cards, drop an ultimatum, put in 4 negates and add 2 lands, but I like big decks so i'm not sure, I like negate the best as protective magic since it's a cheap hard counter, unless you want to splurge on some Forces

I am also sad about not focusing on Bolas but he can easily be your primary win-con if you tutor it up first

Last edited by imsully2 (2012-06-26 20:50:55)

There are a few reasons to go with Jhoira of the Ghitu over Aether Vial. 

First off, and perhaps most importantly, is the cost.  You're looking at $2-3 per Jhoira vs. $9-11 per Aether Vial.  Now if I had several Vials, you had better believe they would already be in here.

Second, I would need more than one Vial to play more than one creature per turn.  With Jhoira, her ability only costs two colorless and doesn't require tapping, meaning it can be done numerous times per turn.  With her at a casting cost of three, if I were to play her and only have her for my fourth turn, I could still set two creatures into motion before they would kill her.

Third, Jhoira doesn't require it to be a creature.  Look at the text on her, it's ANY non-land card in my hand, meaning I could drop one of the big creatures, Venser's Journal, Paradox Haze or even Cruel Ultimatum all for two.  The Vials only apply to creatures and require the number of counters to be exact, so I would have to a) have multiples of them and stick them at different counter values for when those creature costs arise, b) WAIT until I get creatures at those values before adding more counters, or c) figure out a consistent way and plan around REMOVING those counters.  None of those are thoughts I really want to have to consider.

A good suggestion and one I thought about myself just a day or two ago, but Jhoira is far more flexible from the look of things.

Good lord, between the Lion's Eye Diamond and "like nine" Aether Vials... what else do you have hiding in your inventory?

Last edited by TyWooOneTime (2012-06-27 17:24:48)