Topic: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

Howdy. This is my first foray into finding critiques for my decks, and I'm expecting to learn a lot.
Below, we have my first attempt at a competitive deck in several years. I most recently played mono-black vampires in Zendikar, so I've been out for a while. Theros looks really nice, and with the RtR block, I decided to jump back in with some good old fashioned Gruul smackdown.

Here we have a solid Gruul aggro build, replete with pump.

The sideboard contains answers to a lot of the prevalent and expected threats in my local meta.

I'd appreciate suggestions and constructive criticism. I expect to change this deck quite a bit over the coming weeks, as I get back into the swing of things. I'm not on any particular budget, but I won't be dropping $400 all at once. Slow and steady and all that jazz.

http://deckbox.org/sets/486067

See below for up-to-date changes.

Last edited by Leaite (2013-09-25 08:47:24)

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Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

just throwing my opinion out there:

Not really sure slitherhead is a good choice here, if your looking for a 1 drop i'd much rather use experiment one IMO you get more value out of it, and you can regenerate it.

I also feel you need a few removal spells maybe lightning strike or even magma jet, the ability to scry IMO is a lot better than what ppl think.

Not a fan of skarrg guildmage either but maybe that's just me, if your going midrange here maybe Scavening
Ooze is a choice, but to me this looks more agro, you should want a clear distinction if your going competitive.

With 24 land what are you trying to ramp to with sylvan caryatid? idk if that's doing to much here either.. maybe gore-house chainwalker if you wanna go aggro

id drop feral invocation, consider madcap skills or even ordeal of purphouros.

I think it needs a bit of work yet, there's signs of midrange and signs of gruul so its really hard to help if your undecided but I gave a little help based on if u wanna go aggro

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

TBittenbender wrote:

just throwing my opinion out there:

Not really sure slitherhead is a good choice here, if your looking for a 1 drop i'd much rather use experiment one IMO you get more value out of it, and you can regenerate it.

I also feel you need a few removal spells maybe lightning strike or even magma jet, the ability to scry IMO is a lot better than what ppl think.

Not a fan of skarrg guildmage either but maybe that's just me, if your going midrange here maybe Scavening
Ooze is a choice, but to me this looks more agro, you should want a clear distinction if your going competitive.

With 24 land what are you trying to ramp to with sylvan caryatid? idk if that's doing to much here either.. maybe gore-house chainwalker if you wanna go aggro

id drop feral invocation, consider madcap skills or even ordeal of purphouros.

I think it needs a bit of work yet, there's signs of midrange and signs of gruul so its really hard to help if your undecided but I gave a little help based on if u wanna go aggro

TBittenbender is pretty on target here.  To go through the points systematically:

1) Experiment One is better than Slitherhead in just about every scenario.  Unless you're REALLY dying to be using +1/+1 counters, you will want the Exp every time.

2) You do appear to be torn between aggro and mid-range as TB says.  I think Gruul decks are running into this problem a LOT these days as it's not entirely clear which route is best - especially given that aggro might be slowing down with Theros - but then again, the mid-range card of the year, Thragtusk, is rotating out.  So there's really no telling which route is best.

3) Among the cards in your list that really just under-perform are, Skarrg Guildmage, Rubblebelt Raiders, and Wild Beastmaster.  If you have a friendly meta, you could easily catch someone off guard and this might work.  However, the more likely situation is that the Beastmaster gets blown up before it would pump your stuff and the guildmage will sort of just sit there.  The Raiders have the best chance of doing something meaningful.

4) I would suggest looking into Reverent Hunter as an option to slide in the deck.  It will often come in as a pretty sizeable creature given the devotion you'll get off of Exp One, Burning Tree, and others.

5) I'm also not sold on Titan's Strength or Feral Invocation.  Sure, they offer some tricks, but that's why Ghor-Clan Rampager is in there.  I would suggest either Boon Satyr or some other bloodrush.  Both offer some options to pump but don't get you blown out in the same way other pumps do.  For instance, bloodrush can't be countered as you're not actually casting it... and the Satyr if cast for the bestow cost, if they take out the target, it still comes in as a creature.  Neither is perfect, but they provide some options.

6) I would suggest Savage Summoning in the SB.  Counter-magic is about to make a resurgence with Cavern of Souls rotating... so that ability to have uncounterables is going to be big.

Anywhom, I would suggest looking into whether you want to go more aggro or mid-range.  Once you clarify that distinction, it'll be easier to suggest alternatives to the cards I've listed above.

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

With the suggestions presented here and elsewhere, I've reworked the deck into a more aggro-themed version. So, for your consideration, Wild Abandon - Aggro Edition.

http://deckbox.org/sets/486067

My only concern with the new list is my curve-topping Stormbreath Dragon. Currently, for all three, it'll run me $75. I'm positive that there's a decent alternative out there that won't cost a month's worth of light and internet.

Last edited by Leaite (2013-09-25 09:29:05)

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Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

Seems like Everyone wants to play mutavault where it doesn't belong.
idk if mutavault works here as you may need certain colors early in the game and mutavault only offers colorless I just don't think it's that great.

The temple as well im not sure about that card in agro.. It comes in tapped so if your draw it early your a turn behind and in agro that's not too good. but it may be worth a shot.. If you play it for the scry i'd try magma jet as I find that card great as you get to burn through 2 cards..

10 1 drops is a lot, it may work...maybe one of the others could recommend something for that

I really only thought about stormbreath in midrange hitting 5 lands frequently enough in an agro deck will be rough but playtest it, it may work.

My current agro for post rotation looks something like this..

4x experiment one
4x rakdos cackler
4x gore-house chainwalker
4x burning tree
2x boros reckoner
4x ghor clan rampager
4x lightning strike
3x magma jet
4x madcap skills
4x domri rade
1x xenagos

22 lands

This is just me and how I will playtest on FNM once rotation hits.. im not sure about how xenagos works here but I will find out..

Also another card you can try is lightning mauler..

I will also be playtesting mistcutter hydra, and scavenging ooze in my sideboard

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

First off, Lightning Mauler is rotating... so no good there.

Second, I just don't see Xenagos working in aggro.  Mid-range, you bet.  Aggro, nah.  You want to be winning the game on T4-5 not pumping out another 2/2 or ramping toward something.  Odds are your hand is empty at that point anyway.

Third, comments for Leaite's build...

I cannot stress enough that Firedrinker Satyr is not as good as everyone is hyping it up to be.  Consider the following, you have said Satyr and they have a 3/3... let's say a centaur for the sake of argument.  Yes, you can attack into the centaur and pump the satyr to take it out - giving you a 1-for-1 exchange (typically good value), but consider that you're not just trading 1-for-1.  In reality, you're trading 1-for-1 in cards, but are also giving up two mana (a precious resource in an aggro deck) AND are taking four damage.  Now I know that most aggro decks don't really care about giving up some life, as, after all, they're racing and their whole strategy is predicated on being faster.  However, consider how easy it is to play another 3/3.  Hell, you have Kalonian Tuskers in this build... so the question becomes, is Firedrinker Satyr really worth it?  Or perhaps an alternative example would illustrate... damage done to him is also done to you... so if I have Lightning Strike in hand, I'll happily zap him and thank you for essentially copying my spell and hitting yourself with it.

Experiment One is a better one drop, not because of its initial stats, but because it continues to grow as the game evolves, making it a bigger and bigger threat turn after turn.  Additionally, it can regen in the face of a Supreme Verdict.

I'm not seeing much in the way of other creatures you can drop with BTE - just another BTE, Scavenging Ooze or some combination of one-drops.  Firefist Striker is a REALLY good option to consider here.

I think, being aggro, you could afford to drop to 2x Stormbreath Dragon.  It helps the wallet and, to be honest, won't be necessary a lot of games.

I don't know that Zhur-taa Swine is a great option either.  Sure, it can bloodrush for a lot of damage, but the real reason Ghor-Clan sees so much play is because it provides trample, allowing you to both take out an opposing creature AND slam through for damage.

I would likely drop to 2x Magma Jet and 1x Mizzium and fill those three vacated slots with Lightning Strikes.  Scrying is a mid-range game most of the time.  You might be able to fix things so that Domri can hit more reliably, but outside of that, you have bigger and better things to be doing.

I think you would be well suited to look into Reverent Hunter.  At the moment they're only like $1.50 each AND it would rather consistently enter play on T3 as a 3/3 or higher.  Just food for thought...

Lastly, I would suggest even considering Gruul War Chant as a possible finisher at the four spot.  Think, odds are you've put some serious hurt on them by then.  Even having a pair of 3/3s on the field, they become 5/3s and the opponent can likely only block one.  That's probably 2-for-1 exchange on creatures AND sliding in for those last points of damage.

So did I save your light and internet for the month?

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

I meant firefist striker, not lightning mauler.. I knew it didn't sound right. lol

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

I've been looking at Firefist for a while, actually.

As for Firedrinker, I've been debating the same point back and forth with some friends. We've playtested, and Experiment definitely comes out on top. I know it's rotating, but I got pinged with a Blasphemous Act with two of them on the field. Ow. Not something I want to see happen again, especially with Anger of the gods looking like it's going to be the go-to for red wiping at this point.

I've exchanged them for Experiment One.

I dropped one Stormbreath Dragon.

I also fiddled with the instant/sorcery/enchantment list, taking the advice on the Scry factor.

And yeah, you kept me out of the dark and sane.

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Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

FOUR planeswalkers? Of the same type? That's like, $75 of card you can't play at any given time. Especially considering Rade is primarily a support planeswalker.

Personally, I don't ever put more than one planeswalker of a certain type in any given deck, although for a particularly badass one I can see grounds for a pair.

Think of it this way: as is you have SIX pair combinations of cards you cannot possibly cast. If you replaced half your Domri Rade's with Garruk Relentless (for example: it'd transform into a black card) there would only be two card combinations you couldn't cast: the pairs. The other four pair combinations would actually wind up with some fair card synergy, as after Garruk takes damage he's spouting deathtouch wolf tokens which Rade's -2 power can force onto particular permanents. Decent removal, especially because it's not using any of your cards or mana.

The difference goes up even more if you assume you draw three or four of the cards. With three planeswalker cards you're guaranteed to be able to play two of them, as opposed to one right now. With four you're guaranteed to be able to play half of them, as opposed to a quarter of them right now.

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

Egann wrote:

FOUR planeswalkers? Of the same type? That's like, $75 of card you can't play at any given time. Especially considering Rade is primarily a support planeswalker.

Personally, I don't ever put more than one planeswalker of a certain type in any given deck, although for a particularly badass one I can see grounds for a pair.

Think of it this way: as is you have SIX pair combinations of cards you cannot possibly cast. If you replaced half your Domri Rade's with Garruk Relentless (for example: it'd transform into a black card) there would only be two card combinations you couldn't cast: the pairs. The other four pair combinations would actually wind up with some fair card synergy, as after Garruk takes damage he's spouting deathtouch wolf tokens which Rade's -2 power can force onto particular permanents. Decent removal, especially because it's not using any of your cards or mana.

The difference goes up even more if you assume you draw three or four of the cards. With three planeswalker cards you're guaranteed to be able to play two of them, as opposed to one right now. With four you're guaranteed to be able to play half of them, as opposed to a quarter of them right now.

4 Domri's is pretty standard for a RG aggro deck.  And i'm pretty sure he wants to stay standard/ for rotation.

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

@EGANN you obviously haven't had the chance to -2 domri and fight, then cast another domri -2 that domri fight again and then swing out with everything.. watch the reaction on their face as you pull that stunt on them.

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

TBittenbender wrote:

@EGANN you obviously haven't had the chance to -2 domri and fight, then cast another domri -2 that domri fight again and then swing out with everything.. watch the reaction on their face as you pull that stunt on them.

Even worse if you do it with a reckoner.  Though Naya is a big shaky atm.

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

elpablo wrote:

4 Domri's is pretty standard for a RG aggro deck.  And i'm pretty sure he wants to stay standard/ for rotation.

Just because other people are doing it doesn't mean it's a good idea. In this case, yes, having four means there's a 40% chance of having Domri in your starting hand or drawing him in the first three turns, but there's also a 13% chance of two or more, which is basically like losing a card in the hand.

Compare this with having only two. 28% chance, with 2% of both in the same ten card stretch. Basically, it's a trade of 10% chance of drawing Domri for a 10% chance for having one more card in your first three turns. Considering you can only expect to draw Domri 40% of the time even with four in the deck (meaning you can't count on him to win, even in ideal circumstances), that there's still a fair chance of drawing him, and that this is an aggro deck, so one card more over three turns is probably huge, I'd say this is a really, really good trade-off.

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

Other people are doing it and it _is_ a good idea. tongue

I think you would understand the reason for a full set of Domri in the deck if you saw it in action.  Your math from what I can tell is basically right, but you _DO_ want to see domri as often as possible and the example TB~ gave was spot on. 

Domri is/can be removal, but more importantly he's card advantage in a heavy creature based deck.  IMO, i would ramp to domri turn 2, then cast a big fatty turn 3. 

I'm sorry, but your advice is just not relevant in this instance.  In other midrange decks or control decks your right.  You don't usually want a 4 of planeswalker.  You just need to be able to get to them when you need them.  Two domri's in an opening hand is fine as long as you have other action, or even just land and ramp.  He is a prime target for removal and he's an important cog in the machine.  Redundancy is exactly what you need in this case.

Re: [Standard][Opinions] Wild Abandon - Gruul Aggro

4x Domri is great, and I'm more than fine with the price for the sheer value. Plus, monetarily speaking, Domri's gonna be one of the walkers who holds value over time.

Mechanically speaking, Domri is one of the best sources of removal in the game, and an early-game Domri can get going, the ultimate is pretty beautiful. That said, even the +1 is great in terms of sheer card advantage. Combine that with the little bit of scry present, and it's a winning combination.

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