Topic: Trade dispute problems

sebastian is the owner of deckbox and he is a one-man operation.
i have 100% positive feedback with over 80 trades on here and i ran into a problem,
I was actively doing a trade with someone and we were supposed to simul-send. I go to the post office everyday so I was waiting for the other guy to send me a tracking number so I can ship same day. the guy sent me a tracking number so I shipped my package. after a couple days my package arrived with no issues so I checked the status of his on usps.com. it showed that the tracking number he sent me was self generated at home but the package was never received by the post office. after 3 weeks of waiting and talking to the guy I asked for my cards back and he saw that deckbox rules says if he used tracking then he gets to keep my cards and I get nothing so he opened a dispute. sebastian trying to be a mediator says that the guy is correct and that since he used tracking he gets to keep my cards and I get nothing without even reading the details. after I explained that he generated a tracking number from home at paypal.com but never delivered the package to the post office sebastion then decided to say that I should lose half of my cards instead of all of them even though I did everything I was supposed to do. I decided to tell him how unfair this is and that if my package got lost in the mail I would send all of the other guys cards back because its the right thing to do, in fact one of my packages did get lost in the mail to someone else and I did send back all their cards and I showed the proof to him. sebastian didn't care and demanded I forfeit half my cards so I decided to talk to the original trader and convince him that he should return all my cards or I will file a mail fraud claim. sebastian didn't like that so he suspended me lol. now after numerous messages I've received from my trade partners from the past wondering why I'm suspended because I'm such a nice guy and forwarding those to sebastion he is ignoring them and not lifting the suspension. so the moral of this forum is that if you want to either steal all of someones cards or at least half of them you will be backed up by deckbox to insure you can get away with it by just generating a tracking number at home and not mailing anything out.

Last edited by sebi (2015-11-18 10:54:37)

Re: Trade dispute problems

Publicly bashing the owner of a site isn't a great way to convince him to unsuspend you.

HOWEVER, according to the details you have provided it sounds like Sebi did make, in my opinion, a bad decision. The relevant Deckbox rule here is:

2.2. Sending cards. The sender is responsible for getting the cards to the destination. He will be held accountable for items lost in the mail if a form of tracking was not used; proof of sending is not sufficient.
If you as a sender do not have proof of delivery, resend your part of the deal, make monetary restitution or return the cards you received. Resending cards should always use a form of tracking, to avoid further disputes.

I believe the underlined sentence is the most important here. The other trader has no proof of delivery, whereas you do.

Now, for Sebi's viewpoint. He probably looked at your tracking info and saw that your cards were delivered. Then he looked at the other guy's tracking info and saw that nothing was delivered. My guess is that he's thinking that the USPS lost the package (at no fault to either trader ofc) so instead of 1 guy eating the entire loss, the loss will be split between the two traders. However, this is not the way that this should be handled according to the rule cited above.

Facts (According to what you've told us):

  • You sent your cards and have proof of delivery.

  • The other trader has no proof of either sending or delivery.

  • The rule states that if you have proof of delivery that you are protected.

  • The rule also states that if you DON'T have proof of delivery that you have to make restitution (by returning the cards or w/e)

Now, having spoken directly with Sebi myself numerous times and I payed close attention back when the Bad Trading Report forum was a public thing I can say with confidence that I've never seen him ban or suspend someone for no reason. I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that the language you used during this dispute was less than friendly at times. Directly threatening your trade partner with a mail fraud claim certainly didn't help the situation (even though it seems like you would actually be justified in doing so).

Also, Sebi has nothing to gain monetarily by suspending someone and he doesn't care about the cards themselves. He doesn't gain anything by you two trading. He also doesn't know either of you personally so he's not going to choose to screw one of you over for no reason.

Profile  Tradelist

Re: Trade dispute problems

Firstly, I don't think it's really in your interests or to your credit to make this a personal callout of sebi. Many of these cases puts him in a difficult position of having to decide who loses value on a trade. That's unenviable, and he shouldn't have to be called a scammer or ripper or whatever just for ruling in a way that makes someone unhappy.

That said, if the facts of the case are actually as you describe then I do think it's wrong that you had to take a loss. I can understand why a user that employs tracking should not be responsible for lost cards, but imo that should only be case if the tracking shows that the cards were delivered to the proper destination. The scenario you describe sounds way too abuseable - sender just generates a tracking number then keeps his cards and sends nothing, and then says too bad for you since a tracking number was generated.

Full disclosure, I recently had a similar case, except the tracking just showed that the package was routed to some random location and stopped updating. Maybe I'll get them in 6 months or whatever. I accepted the loss here since the sender probably wasn't at fault. But if tracking had just shown nothing I would've been mad since the sender would've been unable to demonstrate that he had sent anything whatsoever, which is the entire point of providing additional protection for tracking. So I was a bit surprised that tracking protected senders when the tracking showed the packages didn't arrive. I'm very surprised because it seems clearly wrong if tracking protects senders when they can't even show that a package was processed by the post office. I think that rule obviously protects senders too much, although I guess a plain reading of the current deckbox rules implies this.

But in the end you were banned for trying to circumvent Deckbox's adjudication system because you didn't like the ruling. This is understandable - even if you don't like the rulings filing a mail fraud claim after adjudication is basically rejecting the process, and saying that you are unwilling to submit to sebi's rules. Why should you expect to be able to continue using the site at that point? You should've taken a loss on the trade, given the sender neutral feedback fairly voicing your complaints, and perhaps brought up the rules for discussion here. Trying to supercede the rules was a mistake, though, and maybe you should try apologizing for it.

Last edited by 9700377 (2015-11-17 15:47:12)

Re: Trade dispute problems

I agree with with both of you to a point smile Im sorry I failed to also state that at one point I was going by sebis rules and accepted that I would lose half of my cards but I was going to file a mail fraud as well so other good people dont get screwed by this guy but to sebi it didnt matter

Re: Trade dispute problems

Dude, you totally deserve a suspension and here is why.

Even if sebi made a mistake in his original ruling, you DO NOT use a threat of mail fraud complaint to extort someone on this site to do something different from sebi's ruling.  If you think they committed mail fraud, you just file a mail fraud complaint, but what you did was very wrong and was an attempt to undermine the entire moderation process here.

Last edited by bactgudz (2015-11-18 00:08:41)

Re: Trade dispute problems

Once sabi tried to side with him, the guy acted like he was justified to steal my cards so I tried to give the guy the opportunity to do the right thing by letting him know that if he wanted to keep my cards then I would file a claim, it wasnt a threat in my eyes, it was a repercussion that would follow depending on his actions.

Re: Trade dispute problems

I have closed this topic we have discussed the issue enough on the dispute thread and email. shadow7399, if you do not let this go I will have to ban your account and IP so that you cannot access this website at all. This is my last warning.

You have not lost any cards and any value in any trade here. Your trade partner took the entire loss for the USPS lost mail.

The only thing you have done is harass him, me and other users of the website constantly (and it seem you do not wish to stop).

My decision of not allowing you to trade here is final and non negotiable.