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I think users should only need to use the bad trader forum when all other options are exhausted. That's the way that Salvation has theirs set up.
Here are the rules for the forum there:http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=397614
It's a well written set of rules. I don't use MTG Salvation for trading but it seems to me that they have a different dilemma in that their trading is facilitated by forum posts. If that's true then I see the need for these rules. On Deckbox, we have the feedback system and the admins have the ability to turn off a users ability to trade. That seems like the equivalent of a "BTR" on MTG Salvation's MarketPlace with the added benefit that nobody has to check the aforementioned thread before they are made aware of a bad trader. What other options need be exhausted?
It's not like I am going to stand in anybody's way if they really want a bad trader forum created. I couldn't if I wanted to. I just want everyone to be sure there isn't already a mechanism in place to handle what they want; even if it isn't done the same way other sites are doing it.
Zenthazar wrote:I had the same problem with a guy from the Reddit trade thread. I sent a message to the mods just to make them aware, but I knew they had no real power... sucks being out 25 bucks in cards.
You have his address, why not file mail fraud?
Not really worth the effort. I'm more annoyed that I didn't receive my Angelic Destiny then giving away cards for free. I needed it for weeks and didn't want to pick it up (finally did) somewhere else.
Coyote1023 wrote:Zenthazar wrote:I had the same problem with a guy from the Reddit trade thread. I sent a message to the mods just to make them aware, but I knew they had no real power... sucks being out 25 bucks in cards.
You have his address, why not file mail fraud?
Not really worth the effort. I'm more annoyed that I didn't receive my Angelic Destiny then giving away cards for free. I needed it for weeks and didn't want to pick it up (finally did) somewhere else.
You could at least report him to get his/her address out there. I don't want to trade with this person, and due to your crypticness, I don't know if I have/will.
With a system we all get to see the address of the persons involved, so we can protect ourselves.
It's a well written set of rules. I don't use MTG Salvation for trading but it seems to me that they have a different dilemma in that their trading is facilitated by forum posts. If that's true then I see the need for these rules. On Deckbox, we have the feedback system and the admins have the ability to turn off a users ability to trade. That seems like the equivalent of a "BTR" on MTG Salvation's MarketPlace with the added benefit that nobody has to check the aforementioned thread before they are made aware of a bad trader. What other options need be exhausted?
It's not like I am going to stand in anybody's way if they really want a bad trader forum created. I couldn't if I wanted to. I just want everyone to be sure there isn't already a mechanism in place to handle what they want; even if it isn't done the same way other sites are doing it.
This forum is a conglomeration of reddit trade thread posts and deckbox users. Not all trades go on around here.
Also, filing for mail fraud doesn't get you anything. If a hundred people file mail fraud for the same guy, the cops might look into it.
120 (100%)For what it's worth I am somewhat against a bad trade forum. It has little potential to help the users get their cards, a mild amount of potential to warn future traders and a large amount of potential to turn in to a witch hunt. That isn't good for anybody and, in the end, defeats the very purpose of its creation because it wouldn't be reliable.
I personally just finished a trade today that I may have blasted all over the proposed forum had one existed. As it turns out, the other trader was simply very slow and a poor communicator. Had I posted his name the damage to his reputation would have been done and yet he didn't do anything that couldn't have been resolved through the trade feedback system.
That's small comfort for those who have truly lost their cards, I am sure. But, you always have the recourse of leaving negative feedback and getting the Deckbox admins involved who may eventually suspend trading privileges for the user in question. This method does a better job of pushing for a resolution and warning other users to trade cautiously (often because they won't be able to trade with them).
The problem with the feedback system is that one person always has to leave it first. So it gives you strong incentive to leave positive feedback regardless of how bad the trader is because of fear that he'll leave negative feedback in return.
The problem with the feedback system is that one person always has to leave it first. So it gives you strong incentive to leave positive feedback regardless of how bad the trader is because of fear that he'll leave negative feedback in return.
That's a very valid point and I agree with Bertongod that a change to the feedback system wherein neither party may see the feedback score until both have been entered seems like a reasonable solution.
Perhaps a system where negative feedback needs to be approved by mods. This way we can use neutral for unhappy experiences and leave negative for the real cases of fraud, bad communication, and neglect. Thoughts?
I think that's a good idea but I also know that this site was built and is maintained by two very awesome people who have day jobs. If they spend their time moderating feedback they will have less time to make improvements to the site which is what they really want to be doing (and it's what we want too 
). It would be awesome if some people could serve as arbiters in trades gone bad but I wouldn't want to take the site administrators away from making Deckbox better.
Does anyone know if Sebi and/or Laura read this board? This thread is forking in to two concerns, one about a way to deal with bad traders (the original intent) and another about how feedback is left. I might split it and move them both to the feedback forums if that's OK with the moderators here. (I don't just want to jack your thread and move it around on you 
)
I think that's a good idea but I also know that this site was built and is maintained by two very awesome people who have day jobs. If they spend their time moderating feedback they will have less time to make improvements to the site which is what they really want to be doing (and it's what we want too
Does anyone know if Sebi and/or Laura read this board? This thread is forking in to two concerns, one about a way to deal with bad traders (the original intent) and another about how feedback is left. I might split it and move them both to the feedback forums if that's OK with the moderators here. (I don't just want to jack your thread and move it around on you
Email, and forward this thread with a few detailed suggestions to Sebi.
that's my best advice.
Last edited by Monolith (2012-03-28 21:17:13)
28 (100%)
Yeah, right now the feedback system right now doesn't really do anything other than completely shut down someone who gets a negative (or even a neutral).
Ideally I'd like to see neutral be used for the majority of trades, +1 if the trader is really friendly, generous, etc., and -1 for bad trades. Then have an easier way to see their detailed feedback. This would only work if feedback was hidden until given by both parties, as then you'd have no personal incentive to give someone a +1. It would act like a compliment/reward for exceptional trades.
I believe a system like this would encourage people to be friendly and yield better trades, and it would allow people see how good of a trader someone is (instead of just how many trades they've made). Lets say someone has made 20 trades and they have a feedback score of:
0 (all neutral): I'd have no qualms about trading with them. They may not be very personable or whatever, but they haven't made any bad trades so why not trade with them?
+9 (10 positive, 1 negative): I'd still trade with them despite their -1. It wouldn't shut them down from trading because it could have been a fluke or something, considering they've had 10 good trades. At a glance they'd look like better traders than the first guy, too, since they have net positive feedback.
+15 (all positive): I'd jump through hoops to trade with them. It's obvious that other people really enjoyed trading with them and complimented them with the +1s for it (and they'll get rewarded with trade requests from more people because of this).
/$.02
Edit: This would also make the feedback system a lot clearer, especially for new people. I've had a few trades where hardly any words were exchanged between us. Not to say that there's anything wrong with this - the cards were sent in a timely fashion and arrived in good condition, but I'm sure we both walked away feeling neutral about it. Yet the feedback system pretty much requires a positive feedback, which has made it essentially a "not awful" feedback and not a commendation for a really good trade like I believe it should be.
Last edited by widdly_scuds (2012-03-28 21:43:58)
Email, and forward this thread with a few detailed suggestions to Sebi.
that's my best advice.
That's a good point. We don't need to spark further debate and my intention is to give it visibility. I will take your advice, thanks!
Monolith wrote:Email, and forward this thread with a few detailed suggestions to Sebi.
that's my best advice.That's a good point. We don't need to spark further debate and my intention is to give it visibility. I will take your advice, thanks!
I've emailed sebi about this issue, and while we cannot set up a bad trader subforum the way that magictraders has (with full name and address plastered on the threads), the deckbox.org admins are working on a better, clearer feedback system. We've also talked about having admins deal with bad trader reports and permanently banning (no new accounts) previously-reported addresses.
Currently, the admins are utilizing a flagging system for accounts that do not respond to investigative questions.
Please add to the discussion in this thread: http://deckbox.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1574
This is an issue that affects all of the deckbox community.
551 (100%)Been looking at this thread and while i am sorry you have to deal with this it brings up a few points I am dealing with.
What exactly deserves a Negative feedback rating? Now obviously someone who takes cards and never mails yours is a bad trader, but is that the only thing that requires a negative score? If someone proposes a trade, you both agree and then five days later you dont hear anything and they cancel the trade without any notice saying they are no longer interested. While no cards were exchanged or lost would you also consider this a bad trade as they have held up your cards that could have been traded to others? Especially if they are the one that proposed the trade. Currently facing this myself as someone I have never traded before made a deal offer and while it seemed a bit too good for me, they made the offer and so I agreed. Now almost a week later and they have not mailed the card or really responded. Sent an email so still waiting for a response but if it fails I feel i should be able to leave a negative score without getting one in kind. I was suspicious of the trader (only +1 and that was a while ago) so them sending first is part of the agreement. This may seem petty but i decided to pass on offers due to this agreement being finalized and its irritating that he screwed me on those offers.
I want to add I have had a great experience on here so far and lots of wonderful honest people so want to keep it honest and safe for all of us as long as possible.
Been looking at this thread and while i am sorry you have to deal with this it brings up a few points I am dealing with.
What exactly deserves a Negative feedback rating? Now obviously someone who takes cards and never mails yours is a bad trader, but is that the only thing that requires a negative score? If someone proposes a trade, you both agree and then five days later you dont hear anything and they cancel the trade without any notice saying they are no longer interested. While no cards were exchanged or lost would you also consider this a bad trade as they have held up your cards that could have been traded to others? Especially if they are the one that proposed the trade. Currently facing this myself as someone I have never traded before made a deal offer and while it seemed a bit too good for me, they made the offer and so I agreed. Now almost a week later and they have not mailed the card or really responded. Sent an email so still waiting for a response but if it fails I feel i should be able to leave a negative score without getting one in kind. I was suspicious of the trader (only +1 and that was a while ago) so them sending first is part of the agreement. This may seem petty but i decided to pass on offers due to this agreement being finalized and its irritating that he screwed me on those offers.
I want to add I have had a great experience on here so far and lots of wonderful honest people so want to keep it honest and safe for all of us as long as possible.
Just posted a very basic guideline to giving feedback in the sticky post. Please let me know if you see any glaring errors or loopholes. Negative feedback should be treated very seriously. Neutral feedback already makes your account look suspicious because it will say "13 out of 15," and other people will want to know where the missing numbers went.
Also what do you do if a trader offers you cake in a trade but doesn't send the cake, but you receive the cards.
Seems like a neutral rating but i am very angry about not having cake to eat so i am thinking negative. 
680 (100%)551 (100%)Been looking at this thread and while i am sorry you have to deal with this it brings up a few points I am dealing with.
What exactly deserves a Negative feedback rating? Now obviously someone who takes cards and never mails yours is a bad trader, but is that the only thing that requires a negative score? If someone proposes a trade, you both agree and then five days later you dont hear anything and they cancel the trade without any notice saying they are no longer interested. While no cards were exchanged or lost would you also consider this a bad trade as they have held up your cards that could have been traded to others? Especially if they are the one that proposed the trade. Currently facing this myself as someone I have never traded before made a deal offer and while it seemed a bit too good for me, they made the offer and so I agreed. Now almost a week later and they have not mailed the card or really responded. Sent an email so still waiting for a response but if it fails I feel i should be able to leave a negative score without getting one in kind. I was suspicious of the trader (only +1 and that was a while ago) so them sending first is part of the agreement. This may seem petty but i decided to pass on offers due to this agreement being finalized and its irritating that he screwed me on those offers.
I want to add I have had a great experience on here so far and lots of wonderful honest people so want to keep it honest and safe for all of us as long as possible.
You know, I have similar questions. Mbknight and I had traded and I was for certain he was going to give me a negative feedback on a misunderstanding, but I wanted to make it right. I'm glad I could give him what he wanted even though it originally didn't go that way and I could make it up the only way I knew how... traded more value.
My opinion, there shouldn't even be a neutral feedback. It was either good or bad. If it starts to go bad, you make a second or third trade to make it good. When they are bad, there's no do overs. They are so gone that mending the issue is impossible.
Even reading this, I'm a little worried because one of my current trades is with a +1 person... Everyone I dealt with, besides my very first trade, has never enforced the "lower feedback sends first" rule. Not sure when that rule can slide into the "exception" category, but I fear I should have waited for them to send first.
And another thought, and maybe because I'm a family man with a son and experiencing my own mortality...
Who knows, maybe the dude died. And now you just gave him a negative feedback as their going away present.
I know, it's a little funny to think about but a little sad too. I hate being old. 
