Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

Hellnikko wrote:

And another thought, and maybe because I'm a family man with a son and experiencing my own mortality...
Who knows, maybe the dude died. And now you just gave him a negative feedback as their going away present.
I know, it's a little funny to think about but a little sad too. I hate being old. sad

the unlikely event of that even happening, I strongly believe negative feedback over a botched card trade is the least of his worries .. being dead an all..

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Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

Monolith wrote:
Hellnikko wrote:

And another thought, and maybe because I'm a family man with a son and experiencing my own mortality...
Who knows, maybe the dude died. And now you just gave him a negative feedback as their going away present.
I know, it's a little funny to think about but a little sad too. I hate being old. sad

the unlikely event of that even happening, I strongly believe negative feedback over a botched card trade is the least of his worries .. being dead an all..

You have to understand that some people who enjoy MTG actually are very busy people. We're college kids who have homework every night. We're business men with families and children. I've had a few trades of my own get delayed because yes, it turned out that I didn't have time to head to the post office for a week. All you need to do is communicate with your trade partner and work things out. If they don't respond at first, but eventually explain themselves, there's no need to give negative feedback.

Another trade partner of mine didn't respond for a week and a half after I sent my cards. It turned out that he had all of his cards stolen. Dealing with property loss isn't a 1 hour thing. We talked it out on the trade page and came to an agreement. While I was a bit annoyed when there was silence on the other end, it was still worth waiting out, because you never know.

Remember that negative feedback has a HUGE effect on people. It's demoralizing and outright rude when the sender delivered the items that they promised. You don't know what's going on in other people's lives, so don't make snap judgments.

Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

For the record, my reply to mbknight in no way represents that I harbor bad feelings for him. He was hella nice to make a second (er, third) trade with me to make it better.

Like I said, we worked it out, but I wanted to state that I made a mistake that I was afraid may warrant a negative feedback from him. So I know we want to weed out the bad traders, but still think of the innocent mistakes and not to be quick on pulling the trigger.

And yes, my schedule overlaps the PO hours like an eclipse. It sucks when I make deals on Monday and have to make the other person wait until Friday to ship. I feel bad and hope the other person understands.

Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

Thrun wrote:

... If they don't respond at first, but eventually explain themselves, there's no need to give negative feedback. ...

If, however, the other party is unresponsive multiple times and/or their responses are defiant instead of helpful I think there is room for neutral feedback. 

EDIT:  If you happen to catch the original version of this reply it was wordy and unnecessary so I chopped it down.  I'm tired sad

Last edited by Tawnos (2012-03-30 03:07:11)

Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

hahaha my response to Hellnikko was more of a joke.

the whole ordeal of bad/good/trustworthy trading is what set's my paranoia, and why I only dabble in local trades. eventually I may come out of my shell and partake in a long distance trade. I'm slowly working my way to that point.

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Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

Monolith wrote:

hahaha my response to Hellnikko was more of a joke.

the whole ordeal of bad/good/trustworthy trading is what set's my paranoia, and why I only dabble in local trades. eventually I may come out of my shell and partake in a long distance trade. I'm slowly working my way to that point.

I was going to reply too. I took it as joking! I'm not necessarily worried that the dead guy is worried about the botched deal, it's that the person who gave him feedback would now post his name in the bad trader forum and condemn him while his family and friends are mourning him. For me, I'd be worried about the person being okay before I thought they were a crook. Probably too trusting that way, but if I do find out they jipped me intentionally, I can be a vindictive sonofa.

And you know, I was scared when I did my first long distance trade here. I gave double the value to the guy because I was the FNG at the time. Now that it's done, I don't think I can stop. I'm just late to the party and don't have enough to give unless I get lucky. lol

Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

There will be no personal information posting here. If something comes up and you get banned, there's always room to explain yourself and provide proof if you want to join again. The community isn't quite as big yet smile

Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

Hello everybody.

The last 2 pages in this thread have been a discussion amongst the guys on the reddit mtg trades community. Since it contains many nice ideas, I have moved it here for more visibility.

Our feeling on the matter is that indeed we need more features to enhance the feedback system. The ones that we DEFINITELY want to implement, and you can expect at some point during the month of april are:

  • We want user feedback to really matter. Feedback score will be more prominently displayed everywhere a username is displayed (like the score of an ebay user). Detailed feedback listing will be present on users profiles.

  • A report button will be provided, so people can report untrustworthy users to our support address. We will look into the reports, and will flag users that ignore our requests for comment. (like: http://deckbox.org/users/GreyCr0ss as discussed here earlier in this thread)

  • Canceling a trade after it has been accepted by both parties will have a feedback score that matters to your total score.

  • People's addresses and personal information will NOT be published anywhere, as it would be a breach of privacy. BUT we will implement a system where we are notified when a user sets a suspicious address. (A suspicious address would be one already used by a banned account, or very similar).

  • The current trade help page http://deckbox.org/help/trade will be clearer and more detailed, to have more info on all these issues

As a final note, we will handle serious feedback support requests for cases of fraud, where people ignore other user's emails and so on. These are cases that result in a ban or an untrustworthy flag. We will NOT moderate incorrect feedback support requests. If a trade goes through, and both people receive cards but one user gets a -1 when he was supposed to get +1, that's not a serious problem. The feedback system  should be self regulating in these cases. This works for eBay and many other feedback powered systems, so it should work for us too smile

We're looking forward hear your feedback on these issues.

Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

I'm resurrecting this old thread because we're currently finishing up some of the features we've promised here, and also because of email discussions with users on trade score related topics.

Neutral Feedback

There is an interesting idea proposed by someone higher in this thread that I think merits further discussion or consideration: should there be an option for neutral feedback? In principle it makes sense to have it, but looking back it seems many people feel bad for negative feedback, as they would for negative. So maybe a system with just +1 and -1 would be simpler and clearer?

Expired / old trades

Second issue that is currently a problem are "timed out" trades - the ones that have been accepted but then become stuck - either a user does not send cards, or does not mark them as received, or does not leave any feedback. These trades are currently just showing in the pending section for ever - obviously a bad solution smile.

Possible changes

My thoughts on how to better deal with cancelation and trade score:

  • User score will be shown in a clearer fashion: sebi +10, -1 - meaning I have 10 positive feedbacks and 1 negative.

  • We will allow modification of trade feedback for a limited period of time after a trade is finished (probably 2 weeks).

  • Finished trades - cards sent and received, feedback left by both users. For these we can make feedback only use +1 or -1. Feedback text will be shown directly on a users' trade page so that it's easier to see (now you'd need to click on all trades).

  • Finished trades with no feedback - currently shown as Pending. We could treat these as what neutral stands for right now. If someone does not wish to leave a +1 or -1, hence is indifferent, he can just do that. The user's rating will not change in any way. For the above example, I would still have +10, -1, even if I finished another trade for which I did not receive feedback.

  • Unfinished trades for which someone HAS SENT cards - these basically mean someone has messed up: either the sender is lying, the receiver is lying, the post lost the cards and there is no confirmation, one user just does not use deckbox anymore and does not care, etc. After a set period of time passes and a trade is in the same state (1 month?) it will be shown with a warning sign in the trade listing, highlighted as a "problem" trade. One of the participants will have to then terminate it, and feedback can be left. In case it is a provable scam, he can use the report button and we will enforce negative feedback and/or a ban for the offending party. In case it is not provable, both parties just leave feedback explaining what happened

  • Unfinished trades canceled BEFORE anyone sent cards - these happen for many reasons and generally are "no harm done" type of deals. For these we will implement a Reason for cancelation field, as described by HikingStick at the bottom of this post. They will also take NO feedback score.


How does this sound? We're open to suggestions, now's the best time to discuss this, as we're implementing these things currently smile

Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

Neutral Feedback

I personally like having the ability to leave Neutral Feedback.  There are times where the other person screws up pretty badly (like not shipping for a month), but then ends up coming through and everything is fine.  I really don't want to give them positive feedback, for obvious reasons, but if everything worked out just fine in the end, then I really don't want to give them negative feedback either.

Expired / old trades

I think your ideas generally sound pretty good.  I feel like it is missing something, but I can't come up with anything at the moment so, right now, it is perfect! wink

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Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

I also like the idea of neutral feedback, or no feedback being considered neutral.

Ebay uses a similar system.  It lets users see what percentage of feedback was positive or negative.

To me, the "+10, -1" example presented by Sebi is a good start, but if we are going to have neutral feedback, I'd also want to know that number too.  Not necessarily as another number showing feedback ("+10, 3, -1"), but simply as the total number of completed trades (e.g., "14 trades, +10, -1) or as the percent of trades with positive feedback.  Given two people with a feedback score of "+10, -1", trading with someone with that score out of 15 trades is much less a risk than someone with the same feedback score and 30 completed trades (showing that half of the transactions were neutral).

Then, of course, there's a big difference between someone who has one negative feedback out of five trades than someone who has one negative feedback out of 500 trades.  I might avoid trading in the first example, but would have no qualms about trading in the second.

I believe most users would like to be able to review the reasons listed for feedback (negative or positive).  Looking at lessons learned by Ebay, however, we might find that traders may eventually want another field that will let them respond to any negative feedback that was left.

Example:
Trader A leaves a rating of -1, with a Reason/Comment that reads "Lousy trader. Sent me the wrong cards."
Trader B, who received negative feedback, posts a Rebuttal/Reply: "User received all cards in the trade proposal.  He wanted specific editions, but did not state that in the trade proposal.  I sent all M10 cards, but, after receiving the cards, Trader A indicated he wanted only M12 cards.

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Re: [Feature discussion] Trade score. Feedback and disputes.

ErickC wrote:
Zenthazar wrote:
Coyote1023 wrote:

You have his address, why not file mail fraud?

Not really worth the effort. I'm more annoyed that I didn't receive my Angelic Destiny then giving away cards for free. I needed it for weeks and didn't want to pick it up (finally did) somewhere else.

You could at least report him to get his/her address out there. I don't want to trade with this person, and due to your crypticness, I don't know if I have/will.

With a system we all get to see the address of the persons involved, so we can protect ourselves.


What if there is special feedback for not receiving cards?

Negative can mean a lot of things.
If someone takes awhile to ship and they know it will be a few days, they should let the person know.
Communication is key here.
(and it's great there you provide a forum message like system within the trade).

But when I'm looking to go into a trade my primary concern is that we both get the cards.
For example, I recently traded 2 show and tell's for about the equivalent worth of cards.
During the beginning of the trade, I could tell the user was a little nervous about receiving the cards, conditions, etc.
(I traded down for less value and cards I know are dropping in price).
But I'm getting into modern play and there's some cards I will probably never use again, worked out for both of us big_smile

So I sent first and before we finalized the trade took pictures of the card conditions with my phone. (so I could also show edges).
I was a bit nervous myself about getting the cards. I sent first and it was a fairly high value of cards to trade.


Could a database be kept of addresses + real names, of traders of steal cards?
(ie: do not send their cards)
After it's confirmed that there was no special circumstances?

I mean a database users can check. To make sure a card taker did not create a 2nd account.