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Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

gmabber wrote:

Is there an ETA on the mobile apps, esp. iOS? Also, will you open up the API's for other developers? I have, like, 85% finished app built on the promises you made, and cutting me off right now would really be unfair.

No ETA at all, depends how much time I will have. I will be looking for a job in january, I am not sure yet what development schedule I can make for deckbox outside of that.

No ETA on API, sorry, I reaaaaaly really honestly wanted one, just never found the time to do it.

The time and effort needed to built and maintain and document a public API, and the overhead it introduces because of backward compatibility for future features is very very high. sad

Additionally, communicating with third party API users and app developers and then redirecting support requests from deckbox site users to them incurs additional time requirements.

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

sebi wrote:
gmabber wrote:

Is there an ETA on the mobile apps, esp. iOS? Also, will you open up the API's for other developers? I have, like, 85% finished app built on the promises you made, and cutting me off right now would really be unfair.

No ETA at all, depends how much time I will have. I will be looking for a job in january, I am not sure yet what development schedule I can make for deckbox outside of that.

No ETA on API, sorry, I reaaaaaly really honestly wanted one, just never found the time to do it.

The time and effort needed to built and maintain and document a public API, and the overhead it introduces because of backward compatibility for future features is very very high. sad

Additionally, communicating with third party API users and app developers and then redirecting support requests from deckbox site users to them incurs additional time requirements.

Sebi, I don't mean to be rude or anything, but... you're promising an app as a premium feature and you've just admitted there is no way for such app to communicate with Deckbox... The way I see it, the API has to come first, then would come the apps, therefore there's no possible way for you to have an app ready in the near future.

Or am I missing something?

Anyways, like I said I have an almost finished iOS app. If you'd like to work something out for your Users, I'm all ears.

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^^ Help me spread the good news! big_smile

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Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

A private API has much less overhead than a public one, is what I meant.

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Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

I don't mean we won't have a public API. I want to have one.

Just mean I do not know when I will have time to do all that needs to be done to have a public API, so I cannot promise when or if it will be available.

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Well, unless you're developing the apps yourself, the amount of work building, documenting and maintaining any API should - in theory - be roughly the same, private or not...

All in all thanks for being blunt on your plans in regard to your stance on mobile and the API. Good luck with the apps! I'll surely check them out :-)

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^^ Help me spread the good news! big_smile

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Just a hint:

There are severall ways to get the documentation work done automatically with ASP.Nets WebAPI by far the easiest way to do so.

And regarding your bulletpoints regarding external work:

Not everyone needs to adress everything - and espescially - outsourcing the code for an API should be the easiest thing a new coder could do - and earn a deep understanding of the exisiting code while doing it.

Profit.

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

I didn't read the entire discussion, but I would like chime to in a bit.

I'm certainly not opposed to the idea of a premium service. I very much understand that there are substantial costs to the website (plus time spent developing and maintaining it of course). I was actually surprised how much the site offers for very few ads

...but the current price of the premium service is a little too high for what is offered. The features offered are just minor "quality of life" improvements, maybe with exception of the restore from backup (what a neat idea that is!). Most of these can be emulated with existing free features too (eg. the deck notes can be used as a scratchpad). None of these enable substantial new usage scenarios. When I compare this to other services, I can get Microsoft Office subscription for the same price (Personal edition) or LastPass for fifth of the price ($12 per year, offers much more substantial benefits), Wolfram Alpha Pro is slightly cheaper and even Photoshop subscription can be had only for twice the price etc. Assuming I wasn't subscribed to these, I would be much more willing to do that than subscribe to Deckbox at the current price.

Of course part of the problem is that you offer an awful lot for free, so not much remains to monetize (without alienating your userbase). I personally would be willing to pay about half of the current price for the current features (plus warm feeling I'm supporting a service I like), but I can see even that being too expensive for people. I mean, what does an average MTG player do - pay for more results per page on a service he uses maybe several times a week, or buy a Wasteland for his EDH deck?

The way I see it, there could be two levels of premium service. Cost of these basic usability improvements would be more on a microtransaction level (fore mentioned $1 per month or so) and then there would be another level with substantial improvements for traders (who, I assume would be willing to pay more).

Also the mentioned API access is a feature that could be available only to the premium users (I would happily pay for full programmatic access to my collection smile ).

And on an unrelated note, one suggestion about this update: I noticed there are now two deck types "Deck ideas" and "Built decks". I would like to suggest a third type - a "Card list". This list wouldn't have a main/side/scratch section, it wouldn't be separated into card types (it should be possible to disable this separation anyways!) and would have the same filters as the collection screen (and paging and stuff). Right now I use a deck for this, but it is really clumsy (and just now I wanted to show all red cards from the list and couldn't).

Thank you for the website, best of luck!

EDIT: One more minor thing, the title screen looks a bit borked now.

Last edited by CommanderZ (2014-12-17 11:42:48)

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Sounds like the biggest issues is Sebi can't do this on his own.  I think that is problem number one.  Forget anything else until there are more volunteers or something. 

There's lots of smart people on this site that I'm sure could help and some would be willing to do it in their spare time if only because they love the game and use the site frequently. 

I'd offer to help, but I'm not a developer.  I only know enough SQL/VB to run my reports for work hmm

Where's a project manager when you need one? tongue

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

sebi wrote:
HikingStick wrote:

Remember, however, that you chose to do most of this on your own. Many have volunteered their time and talents to help you over the years, but you've opted (to the best of my knowledge) to keep all the development work to yourself.

As an addition to my point earlier, I started a draft todo list for what I would need to do and have in place to accept external work, be it contractors / volunteers or employees, for developer positions. It is rough and incomplete, just a starting point, but I will paste it to better highlight how many things would need to be done just to start accepting external work. Bear in mind none of this is in place yet, and not for lack of wanting it, but again, for lack of time and resources:


Need to do on my end:

- code sanitization and security review to make sure access to private user data in not possible by external contributors with access to codebase
- security review for possible weaknesses in production environment access for external contributors with acces to codebase
- collaboration contracts, non-disclosure, legal documents
- documentation on code style, contributing best practices
- documentation on high level overview, and onboarding document. Best way to get started on getting familiar with the codebase.
- a code review process (and document best code review practices)
- a team task management process


Information to get from possible contributors / interviewees:

Please describe your history & experience with the following:
  - security & performance best practices with server backend code
  - ruby & the rails web framework, and their use in non - trivial projects (40+ kloc)
  - background processing servers & job delegation best practices
  - sql - and best practices of programatically generating complex filtering queries, database views
  - sql - using explain to investigate performance bottlenecks
  - javascript best practices for highly dynamic & custom U.I. components, mostly with server-side rendered UI updates
  - experience with working & coordinating remotely, with no supervision or assistance

Additional questions:
- how many hours a week you estimate you would be available, and the approximate time of day you’d mostly be available (in CET) for occasional feature or implementation discussions.

That's exactly the level of thinking/planning I hope you are soon freed up to do.

I do believe you have an opportunity to start building a volunteer Deckbox community, just as the way you did with Mods. Think about how the open source community has been able to accept contributions from all over while pulling them together into a bigger project.  I'm not doubting it will be difficult. I just want you to consider that investing more time into strategy and planning for a bigger development community will have more long term payoffs than you continuing to jump from fire to fire.  Perhaps a periodic hold on all new releases and fixes (e.g., one week in eight, one month a quarter)?

I'm no coder, but I have other business skills. As I've often said (over many years), I am at your service. I'm just an email away.

[BTW--I'm an ITIL Expert, and I'd guess that others (developers) in this community are familiar with ITIL, too.  You might be surprised to find out that many who are willing to help you are already very familiar with development and service management best practices.]

As to whether or not people would be available at specific times for deployments and discussions, I believe most coders interested enough to volunteer their skills will want to be available to make sure things come off well, or to exchange information when troubleshooting an issue.  As to other discussions leading up to releases, forums like these are ideal.  You can post a question to a team, and they can respond during their typical day.  Managing teams across time zones can be a real challenge, but, again, there are those of us who would be willing to help (without needing to draw a salary).

Keep at it, Sebi! My main concern is that you are doing it largely by yourself.  Not only does it leave all the weight on your shoulders, but it increases the likelihood that you will experience burnout.  You are the heart of the site--without a doubt! I just don't want to see you experiencing heart failure due to situations like this one.  Instead of being able to focus on development and growth, you are out here fighting fires in the thread that announced the latest and greatest features of this site.  That one simple task--handing the backlash in the forums--is something that could be handed off to another user or team (provided they're up to speed as to your vision, goals, and objectives).

I'm sure it seems like a Catch-22: you don't have time to communicate because of the time you put into development, and you lose time to development when you are out here communicating.  Childbirth only happens after passing through the pain.

Again, Sebi, you're a one-man show (no offense Laura and Catinca), and you've done a fine job this far.  Just realize there are many of us out here who would be willing to help you. Do you know the Hebrew/Christian holy book? The story of the Exodus? Moses was leading the people, but when he met with his father-in-law, Jethro, he was chided for trying to do it all himself (hearing every dispute among the people himself). Jethro told Moses to divide the people into groups, and to establish leaders over those groups, so he would not have to handle every dispute.  There may be some wisdom there for you to consider.

Keep up the good work, Sebi.  I may not be around as much now as I once was, but I am still interested in your success.  Keep at it!

Profile - Wishlist - Tradelist

Black and Blue--not just for bruises anymore.

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

elpablo wrote:

Sounds like the biggest issues is Sebi can't do this on his own.  I think that is problem number one.  Forget anything else until there are more volunteers or something. 

There's lots of smart people on this site that I'm sure could help and some would be willing to do it in their spare time if only because they love the game and use the site frequently. 

I'd offer to help, but I'm not a developer.  I only know enough SQL/VB to run my reports for work hmm

Where's a project manager when you need one? tongue

I agree 100%.  If given the opportunity, I'd guess that Sebi could have 10-20 skilled volunteers within 30 days.  Per his earlier post, I acknowledge that he needs to be ready to put volunteers to work, but that's the work I'd love to see him freed up to tackle.

Profile - Wishlist - Tradelist

Black and Blue--not just for bruises anymore.

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

elpablo wrote:

Sounds like the biggest issues is Sebi can't do this on his own.  I think that is problem number one.  Forget anything else until there are more volunteers or something.

Yep. Like, one thing - there's been a lot of messy trade disputes recently that call for some sort of further codification/clarification of the trading rules. There's no reason why someone else can't do this - obviously there are a couple helpers already, but I don't think Sebi should have to be involved with this at all if he's confident in his team. His comparative advantage is in site development, not community management/adjudication. I'd happily volunteer to revise some of the rules to clarify them in light of some of the recent disputes if wanted (subject to Sebi's approval, of course.) Stuff like that can go a long way towards making the site less of a headache for its developer(s)..

Last edited by 9700377 (2014-12-17 16:14:08)

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Whats  the total # active users on deckbox?

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Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Hijinks wrote:

Whats  the total # active users on deckbox?

14130 see http://deckbox.org/statistics
EDIT: 14334 now

Last edited by Chaim (2015-01-30 23:18:09)

In general, I am blunt and to the point. I apologize in advance if I appear mean or rude.

I am the Community Admin for the CSUN Magic Players Community. I also sometimes help people with technical issues.
My Wishlist | Featured Deck

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

$4 a month is dirt cheap.  People who use this site for free are taking advantage of all the hard work the deckbox team put into it.  Ridiculous to whine about it.  Work an extra 1/2 hour per month at McDonald's if you need to, but seriously, stop complaining.

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Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Gotta say I'm disappointed. More so that we didn't know the idea of a monthly charge was shared with us much earlier and before it was implemented. Anyhow I think for what we get it's overpriced and while the premium account offers one or two features I would use it's not currently worth the price. I *might* consider it if it were a one time charge but whatever. Maybe $X for this feature and $Y for that feature.

Almundjoy wrote:

While I don't disagree with the need to put a paywall up for content in order to support you and the growth of the website; I think the sticker shock of the initial pay structure is going to discourage a lot of the community from subscribing to it.

ditto

NullParameter wrote:

And in response to to your now edited post, the only reason that I wouldn't stick around is exactly what I stated already, that I've been waiting in hopes for several features and been procrastinating on implementing my own personal inventory system for ages that I'd both (hopefully) get enjoyment from creating and get to use for free.  I'd still be here for trading because there isn't a better site for it, but it is hard to not think about the other parts of the site as essentially non-changing because I'll have to assume that most other new features of importance will likely be premium ones, so any new ideas I come up with to advance the site are basically dead in the water, at least to myself.

ditto again. I've made something similar in the past. When I began playing again and wanted this type of management system I went looking for better alternatives. This site proved to be cleaner than what I had made in the past. It didn't provide everything I wanted but it provides enough of what I'm looking for to be useful enough that I didn't have to make what I wanted. I joined and committed the time to put in my inventory in the hopes that what was missing would come eventually. I just didn't expect those features to cost money.

I really wish there was an open source alternative that I could contribute to and help develop features that are missing. Sadly when I went looking for these services last time such a program wasn't available.

I think moving forward I will start exporting my collection as I make changes to it just in case that feature finds its way behind the paywall.

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

So much bitching and moaning from entitled little pricks! The internet is training us to think that other people's hard work should just be free to everyone and they can just exists as parasites sucking off the ambition of those who produce rather than solely consume.  News flash: making your whiny-ass life easier is not the only motivation that web developers/programmers have to do what they do.  Sometimes people like to be compensated for their work, this is not a novel concept.

And as they are claiming, it's not like the features you have now are going away or becoming premium features.  If you are leaving because you just don't agree with the concept of a pay-site, grow up.  If you are leaving because a feature you had been hoping for is going to be released behind a pay-wall, either pay for it, look somewhere else or build it yourself.  Either way, don't come in here and puke all over the developers' hard work with your unearned and unwarranted "disappointment."

If you end up paying and shit doesn't work or they don't deliver what they claim, or the price goes up to something unreasonable, then sure, it's time to lodge complaints, but seriously people.  This site has been free for years, it's one of if not the best at what it does and, the bulk of it still is free.  Stop bitching.

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

+1

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Hi, just thought I'd chime in on the new premium account. I'm not a very dedicated user, granted, but I use the decklists to dummy up EDH ideas all the time, as well as keep decklists of decks I am selling so I can send a link to people who are interested. After enabling my free trial of Deckbox premium, the only feature I've seen that's truly useful is the scratchpad. I always keep a list of non-sideboard cards I would like to try in the maindeck anyway, and this is quite useful. However, it's not worth $4. Moreover, the 'built' vs. 'idea' is rather redundant, as I keep all my ideas in one deck folder and all my completed decks in another anyway.

Just my two bits.

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

FireBelly71 wrote:

$4 a month is dirt cheap.  People who use this site for free are taking advantage of all the hard work the deckbox team put into it.  Ridiculous to whine about it.  Work an extra 1/2 hour per month at McDonald's if you need to, but seriously, stop complaining.

In no way discounting what this site can do but the closest comparable solution I can find is deckedbuilder which is a $15 mobile/desktop application which has a working (if flawed) card image recognition engine built into it. That's a very significant price difference.

On a side note I am a brand new (potential) user with professional software development experience. Very excited to see where this solution goes, I am waiting on some privacy questions I asked the "contact" email earlier today before porting over my collection.

Hope everyone is having an excellent new year :-)

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Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Tbh the only thing from premium that I think should be free is edition checklist. I am a person who likes collecting every basic lands with different arts and that would help me a lot. Also $4 in some countries is not that cheap at all. Some people, who play casual magic only and build decks for $10 only can't afford that.

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Ber wrote:

Tbh the only thing from premium that I think should be free is edition checklist. I am a person who likes collecting every basic lands with different arts and that would help me a lot. Also $4 in some countries is not that cheap at all. Some people, who play casual magic only and build decks for $10 only can't afford that.

Yet, that is not Deckbox's responsability to ensure every country in the world is able to pay for his services.

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Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Jay4prez wrote:
Ber wrote:

Tbh the only thing from premium that I think should be free is edition checklist. I am a person who likes collecting every basic lands with different arts and that would help me a lot. Also $4 in some countries is not that cheap at all. Some people, who play casual magic only and build decks for $10 only can't afford that.

Yet, that is not Deckbox's responsability to ensure every country in the world is able to pay for his services.

Yup, you're unfortunately right. tongue

Last edited by Ber (2015-01-22 14:31:33)

Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

most importantly, will i be acme to use my amazon echo to search my Deckbox collection via voice commands?  wink

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Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

Thije wrote:

Hi Sebi, what is the roadmap for the two premium options?

- Mobile Application (iOS & Android)
- Collection Tagging & Card Scan Attachments

Currently working on a mobile web(in-browser) special interface - a preview version will be available a bit later this month. smile

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Re: v4.0: Deckbox Premium: Features Galore!

sebi wrote:

Currently working on a mobile web(in-browser) special interface - a preview version will be available a bit later this month. smile

Thank you for going the cross-platform route and not getting caught in the "app trap"! smile