Topic: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

Hey all Amarus here, normally you see me peddling my wares but I have a pretty serious question about what all of you would do when this happens.

I just had a trade with another pretty reputable dude here on deckbox and all was well until my Jitte showed up to his place torn in the mail. I sent it the same way I send all my cards, penny sleeve and top loader within a thick cardboard stock mailer to keep them flat. But apparently this time some dunce at the post decided to shake it up...or...something, either way the card showed up torn with pics to prove it. Now I have not received his cards yet but I am sure I will as I have traded with him before. He is not in the wrong, nor am I from what I figure. What is the normal operating procedure here? Am I considered at fault? Do I mail his stuff back (killer because it was my first maze of ith sad ) ,do I shell out cash (which I can't spare now as I just spent 1700 fixing my car) or is it sorry mate rolled the mail dice and got snake eyes. All options in my mind suck because one of us is screwed.

Options:
1) I pay for the vault of damage      (this sucks because now I am essentially out cash and my Jitte)
2) Nothing happens, mail's fault, can't be blamed      (This sucks because he is now stuck with a torn Jitte)
3) We send everything back (this sucks because we are both out extra postage and now I have the torn Jitte)

If there is another way please advise! I was wondering if there was a forum rule on this but there is nothing I can see. I want us both to come away from this happy, I have traded over 200 times and I have never had anything show up busted...this just really sucks. I made an awesome trade today for the new promo judge foil vindicated and was high on fire...this is a real bummer, been fretting about it all night. If figure somebody else has had to have had this problem so your advice would be greatly appreciated!

Either way thanks for reading and have a good night everyone!

Cheers,
Amarus Cameron

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

Per the guidelines posted here, http://deckbox.org/help/trade_guidelines, you are responsible. Specifically, "Use delivery confirmation, tracking and insurance for sending cards. As the rules state, you are responsible for proving you send the cards and for their arrival at the destination. If you are not insured, any problem with the post will have to be covered by yourself."

I'm pretty sure the default option in this situation is for you to either replace the Jitte or pay for the cost of replacement. It sucks, but that's the risk you take when you mail in a normal envelope, with no insurance. I've seen some envelopes come pretty gnarly and damaged thru trades and card purchases, as well as receiving an alm ost 100% illegible letter at my place of work. It does happen, and it sucks. While it's really neither of your faults per-se, more of them blame lies on you. The other party really has no control how you packaged your cards, and even though you didn;t maliciously package them, you also didn't use a bubble mailer or add insurance. If you were ordering cards from a store and they came damaged, you would likely expect a replacement/refund. As such, if you send cards and they are received damaged, the other person is within their rights to expect the same.

Additionally, the rules cover just about everything. http://deckbox.org/help/trade_rules

Despite all this you can always try to work something out with the user. The main thing here is that you both agree on some sort of restitution.

Last edited by Syonide (2013-11-19 06:05:34)

Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

To Syonide,

I once sent cards via bubble mailer, packaged well, DC, (no insurance) and they showed up bent from how the post office handled them. Im just trying to see how your claim stays true, as you seem to state that the fault is on Amarus for not using those things, but if he had still used them, and the cards still showed up damaged, the fault would still rest in his lap, yes?

Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

Syonide wrote:

Per the guidelines posted here, http://deckbox.org/help/trade_guidelines, you are responsible. Specifically, "Use delivery confirmation, tracking and insurance for sending cards. As the rules state, you are responsible for proving you send the cards and for their arrival at the destination. If you are not insured, any problem with the post will have to be covered by yourself."

I'm pretty sure the default option in this situation is for you to either replace the Jitte or pay for the cost of replacement. It sucks, but that's the risk you take when you mail in a normal envelope, with no insurance. I've seen some envelopes come pretty gnarly and damaged thru trades and card purchases, as well as receiving an alm ost 100% illegible letter at my place of work. It does happen, and it sucks. While it's really neither of your faults per-se, more of them blame lies on you. The other party really has no control how you packaged your cards, and even though you didn;t maliciously package them, you also didn't use a bubble mailer or add insurance. If you were ordering cards from a store and they came damaged, you would likely expect a replacement/refund. As such, if you send cards and they are received damaged, the other person is within their rights to expect the same.

Additionally, the rules cover just about everything. http://deckbox.org/help/trade_rules

Despite all this you can always try to work something out with the user. The main thing here is that you both agree on some sort of restitution.


Thanks for the post, I looked at the reddit rules and totally spaced on over all site rules.

Just to be clear I did not use a normal envelope, this was an express mailer for sending pictures and other things that you do not want to bend, has a hard cardboard shell so that things like that don't happen. I was just surprised anything did. Also I would insure but only for card value over fifity bucks otherwise the cost of trading becomes ridiculous spending 5-10 dollars every time I send something out. Also I always send with DC.

Regardless at least I know what the rules say and where to go from here.

Paul, question answered, thanks all!

Last edited by AmarusCameron (2013-11-19 13:38:36)

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

My opinion:
Until in the hands of the recipient, the cards are yours and your responsibility. If a person is trading for a card in X condition and they arrive as Y, obviously it is not their fault and they wouldn't have traded for that value if at all having known these facts. Your option 2 (he just gets stuck with the Jitte) is not an option at all. You need to work out an agreement with the person you've traded. Maybe he's ok with a damaged Jitte, but only values it at $10 so you need to send additional trade to make up for it. Maybe he just wants to reverse the trade. Whatever the person decides, it should be completely their decision (to an agreeable extent).

Just reverse the situation and put yourself in the other persons shoes.

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

My thoughts would be that Options 1 & 3 are the most fair with a preference to option 3. Sure your going to be out postage, but thats still less than the cost of paying for the new Jitte/Compensation for the damaged one.

We will leave this open so long as the discussion doesnt devolve to far from the topic if people what to continue to discuss it.

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

PhillipW wrote:

My opinion:
Until in the hands of the recipient, the cards are yours and your responsibility. If a person is trading for a card in X condition and they arrive as Y, obviously it is not their fault and they wouldn't have traded for that value if at all having known these facts. Your option 2 (he just gets stuck with the Jitte) is not an option at all. You need to work out an agreement with the person you've traded. Maybe he's ok with a damaged Jitte, but only values it at $10 so you need to send additional trade to make up for it. Maybe he just wants to reverse the trade. Whatever the person decides, it should be completely their decision (to an agreeable extent).

Just reverse the situation and put yourself in the other persons shoes.

Oh I completely understand that, I would hate to be in either position, but here I am. I am not gonna stick him with the Jitte, we are both communicating right now to solve the issue but I just wanted to get some feedback from you guys on your experiences with this.

He wants it for tournament play, does a small tear on the top border make it illegal?

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

AmarusCameron wrote:
PhillipW wrote:

My opinion:
Until in the hands of the recipient, the cards are yours and your responsibility. If a person is trading for a card in X condition and they arrive as Y, obviously it is not their fault and they wouldn't have traded for that value if at all having known these facts. Your option 2 (he just gets stuck with the Jitte) is not an option at all. You need to work out an agreement with the person you've traded. Maybe he's ok with a damaged Jitte, but only values it at $10 so you need to send additional trade to make up for it. Maybe he just wants to reverse the trade. Whatever the person decides, it should be completely their decision (to an agreeable extent).

Just reverse the situation and put yourself in the other persons shoes.

He wants it for tournament play, does a small tear on the top border make it illegal?

Depends on the judge call (they get final call on damaged/altered cards), but if he's playing sleeve it shouldn't matter as that's the only comment that could be made about it being potentially marked.  99.9% of judges or players would think nothing of it.

Though if that's all it is then if it were me (in either position) I would recommend either making up the value in cash (a few dollars maybe for an expensive card like that) or some amount of card value.  Whatever the difference between NM and SP or worse depending on the condition would be.

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

Thanks for the thought bondidude, I'll pose that to him because he seemed to want to keep it other than being worried about tourney play.

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

AmarusCameron wrote:

Thanks for the thought bondidude, I'll pose that to him because he seemed to want to keep it other than being worried about tourney play.

There should be no problem with tournament play as long as the card can be identified as being a Jitte.  :-)

Here's a blog on altered cards, this would apply similarly to a damaged card as well:

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/ … s-and-you/

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

Well it is a slight tear that does not affect the name, mana cost, or picture so I guess it would be legal.

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

AmarusCameron wrote:

Well it is a slight tear that does not affect the name, mana cost, or picture so I guess it would be legal.

Always going to be up to the Judge. If the tear causes a small "bump" in the sleeve it's a marked card and not legal. Usually double sleeving would prevent that but still - up to the judge per event.

Bondidude wrote:

Though if that's all it is then if it were me (in either position) I would recommend either making up the value in cash (a few dollars maybe for an expensive card like that) or some amount of card value.  Whatever the difference between NM and SP or worse depending on the condition would be.

Damaged cards are typically 50% value MAX. It usually comes down to what the person is willing to pay. I consider a damaged Jitte worthless. The person you're trading has remarked that he wants it still so maybe he see's it as a 10 dollar card. Something you'll have to work out with him

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

Well either way my question is answered and opinions have been voiced. Thanks all around! I'm gonna stop worrying and just hash it out with him.

Although to you who have traded with me before and those I might trade with in the future, you might find your top loaders covered in tape to make sure if it gets jostled around nothing could possibly happen again tongue

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

AmarusCameron wrote:

Although to you who have traded with me before and those I might trade with in the future, you might find your top loaders covered in tape to make sure if it gets jostled around nothing could possibly happen again tongue

Help augment that by putting the sleeve in upside down as well.  It will prevent the card from jostling and getting stuck to the tape.

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

Excellent advice, will do.

Again, over 200 trades, this has never happened...but I guess there is a first time for everything.

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

Although I'm new here I am not new to shipping in general, for cards I typically put a card or two in a penny sleeve, then put that in a toploader (right side up) then tape a penny sleeve nice and tight over the top so the tape is in the middle of the top loader on each side and the penny sleeve holds the cards in. This prevents tape from having to be cut open at the top but still adds that security just an idea.

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

I think most of us realize that as long as we send stuff uninsured, we take a risk whenever we send cards. I lost a Snapcaster earlier this year even though I used DC. The mailperson didn't scan the thing at the final destination (so the last status of the package was "Delivery Status not Updated"), and the recipient claimed he never got the card (he's now marked as a bad trader for ripping other people off, so I have a feeling he DID get my card - oh well).

I've received damaged cards before as well due to bad packaging, but those have been from TCGPlayer or eBay rather than actual trades.

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Re: Open Question about cards damaged in a trade

Well at least I'm not alone in my troubles =P

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