I know that a lot of the recent posts we've been seeing in this forum are coming from newer players, but I find it hard to believe that there are so many players out there in need of help with their decks that are also unwilling to offer advice for the other decks. I personally enjoy offering comments on decks because I think the deckbuilding puzzle is almost as entertaining as playing the game itself - that aside, the few of us offering comments cannot be expected to review every deck.

So I have a request - and this is in no way site policy or anything other than a request from one user - but please people, if you're going to post to the deckbuilding forum looking for some advice, please be willing to at least dig around and try to help someone else. Keep in mind that even the most experienced deckbuilder can benefit from some fresh perspective from time to time. This way we can build a more inclusive, more productive community in this forum.

I think part of the problem is that people aren't providing much when they ask for help to begin with.

For example, this is a bad OP:

"hey guys this is my deck advice welcome <link>"

If I saw this, I wouldn't know where to begin. It doesn't tell us anything about what advice you need, what your budget is, whether you're planning to play casually or competitively, what your good/bad matchups are; it doesn't even tell us what format your deck is!

Think about what your deck is trying to do. Do you want to fill the board with a swarm of dudes and overwhelm your opponent? Do you want to deplete their resources until they are stuck top-decking and you have a full hand? Do you want to stick a single big threat early, and then make sure your opponent stays one step behind? Do you want to durdle around until you deal them 20 damage in a single turn? All of these things affect the way you build your deck; despite what you might think from tournament results, you can't just jam 4x Thragtusks in every green deck.

On the other hand, if you posted something like:

"Hey, this is a Standard deck I'm building and I want to do better at my local FNM with it. The goal is to drop a bunch of humans onto the board, cycle through my deck generating mana and drawing cards, and eventually burn them out with Burn at the Stake/Devil's Play. I don't have much difficulty against aggressive strategies like mono-red, but blue-white flash decks constantly beat me. Also I don't have much money so I'd like to stick to commons/uncommons. <link>"

Now I know exactly what you're asking for, which makes it MUCH easier to provide constructive criticism. I might ask why you are using white for Increasing Devotion, when your deck would be more consistent and faster with Burning-Tree Shamans (for example). And I'm not going to give useless advice like "run four Bonfires of the Damned", since you've already said you can't/won't.

I second everything LootPinata just said.

I must agree as well, it's a little frustrating to put time and effort into commenting when I have nothing to work with, of course I wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it but with a little direction I think that we could really help out alot, I know for casual play it's hard to describe the "Meta Game" but if you could just give us a little insight, like my friends started at the same time as me (Gives us an idea of what sets they're using), even if you tell us the name(s) of their best creature(s) they like to play Green or Red (General archtypes exist even within entire colors) or a little thought about how you like to play getting huge creatures and running people over, putting together an epic combo, or just stopping your friends from doing what they want to do.

If you aren't sure about this kind of stuff just add that to your post, experienced players know questions that they can ask you to determine what kinds of decks your friends are using

Thanks for reading :)

I think I can speak for the noobs here, as I've only been part of this community about a year. When I first came in, I saw lots of people asking for deck advice. Even though I had been playing for nearly 10 years, I didn't feel like I had a solid grasp of deck building, so I lurked. Eventually I asked for opinions on some of my decks, but I still lurked when others needed help.

Fast forward to today. I now am pretty comfortable with my general deck-building, but still have limited experience with many of the cards in many blocks. I was a coffee table player who started with 8th edition and a hodge-podge of cards I picked up from people leaving the game over the years. I picked up a few newer packs along the way, but nothing like I have in the past year. So, in reality, I can't name a bunch of cards that fit every scenario. Remember, it wasn't too long ago that one of you commented that it made you "sad" to think I wasn't running Lightning Bolt (I was running some other burn spell that did only two damage). Some of us just don't know all those details about all those cards (it well could be my age, too ;)). It can be quite intimidating.

Even now, there are some decks I feel comfortable commenting on, and others that I look at and say, "I have no idea whether or not this works." It most often comes down to whether or not I have played something similar (or against something similar), or if I know most of the cards in the deck, or know a specific card that just might fit. It has been a learning process.

One of the best players in Minnesota frequents our LGS--I'll cal him Hal. There are some other good players, too (including one who had his deck featured on YouTube as one of the features at a major pro tour event). Most are helpful, if asked, but much is learned just by watching and playing. Just last month, as Hal was helping out another player, he paid me a great compliment that spoke to how much my deck building skills have improved during the past 12 months. He said, "have you seen his Goblin Deck" (referring to one of my Krenko's Dance Party variants)? "Every card he has impacts the board somehow. Every card is designed to pump up his goblins, or to run over and smack your face." He had no idea what it meant to hear that from him. It let me know I was becoming a better player, but it took time, and my confidence in my skills still lags behind..

So, as long you you and I--and other active members--keep helping out when people post, making this a welcoming, friendly place, I'm sure more and more of them will eventually start to share their opinions. Let's just give them some time.

HikingStick wrote:one of you commented that it made you "sad" to think I wasn't running Lightning Bolt (I was running some other burn spell that did only two damage). Some of us just don't know all those details about all those cards (it well could be my age, too ;)). It can be quite intimidating.

That was probably me :P and all of your points are valid, I agree 100% and while I'd love for people to offer insight my primary focus is just that I'd like to know where people would like help instead of just having to guess, because if I guess and I'm guessing too expensive then I could make someone feel like you need to spend a bunch of money to have a good deck or even to have fun, (this is the opposite of the truth by the way, generally the more competitively you play the less you are able to enjoy playing casually :() and if I guess too low then my advice could just be useless, but I say again you are absolutely correct it can be quite intimidating when you first get here, I was intimidated and I've been playing since Kamigawa block (7ish years I guess that makes it) but I'll say that I'd love to get advice even if I never use it, no pressure to anyone but being able to discuss advice has improved my deckbuilding significantly even just since I joined the site

Sorry again HikingStick, I miss having Bolt in standard quite a bit so I react a bit too strongly when I see a Shock varient being used in modern :P

HikingStick - I agree completely that it can be intimidating, but I think ANY discussion, good or bad is useful. So to that end, I'm not expecting everyone to be contributing bullet pointed lists full of comments like I do or pro-level advice by any means. Sometimes even just a suggestion of a card that comes to mind can be just the spur of imagination/perspective to help someone along on their deck.

I'm fine with people taking things slowly when it comes to participating in the forums, but this forum has more than 1,500 posts on more than 250 separate decks - surely this means there are more than 5-6 of us to offer input on deck ideas. Further, the deck listings are easily searchable through the site. So to that end, just a few thoughts here or there or, as LootPinata and imsully2 have already stated, even a bit of direction or added commentary on your own deck so that we know HOW to help goes a long way. After all, I could sit here and tell you all day how I would build your deck, but that might not fit your play style and you might not enjoy it nearly as much as I would (I fall into the Timmy/Johnny player types).

I'll openly admit, I played back during Revised and then took 15 years away from the game. I started back around the release of AVR last year and had a LOT of catching up to do ranging from how a planeswalker even works to the more detailed stack resolution and other rules. It's a LOT to learn and I'm not expecting all the new players to know exactly what's up at all times, but every little bit helps.

I look at this forum as a more friendly version of what you can find on Tappedout - but just like on that forum, if you want feedback on a deck, you should operate with the understanding that you need to participate and offer as much info as possible both when asking for help and when helping others. I'm happy to offer as much input as I can, but a little more backup from the community would definitely be welcome (and you'll note those of us even commenting here are all at more than 100 posts so it's not like any of us are holding our opinions back).

imsully2 wrote:

HikingStick wrote:one of you commented that it made you "sad" to think I wasn't running Lightning Bolt (I was running some other burn spell that did only two damage). Some of us just don't know all those details about all those cards (it well could be my age, too ;)). It can be quite intimidating.

That was probably me :P and all of your points are valid, I agree 100% and while I'd love for people to offer insight my primary focus is just that I'd like to know where people would like help instead of just having to guess, because if I guess and I'm guessing too expensive then I could make someone feel like you need to spend a bunch of money to have a good deck or even to have fun, (this is the opposite of the truth by the way, generally the more competitively you play the less you are able to enjoy playing casually :() and if I guess too low then my advice could just be useless, but I say again you are absolutely correct it can be quite intimidating when you first get here, I was intimidated and I've been playing since Kamigawa block (7ish years I guess that makes it) but I'll say that I'd love to get advice even if I never use it, no pressure to anyone but being able to discuss advice has improved my deckbuilding significantly even just since I joined the site

Sorry again HikingStick, I miss having Bolt in standard quite a bit so I react a bit too strongly when I see a Shock varient being used in modern :P

No worries. I didn't present that tidbit to make anyone feel bad. I just used it as an example--some haven't developed that encyclopedic knowledge yet.

How about this? What if we put together a template with the details we'd like to see in each deckbuilding post? We could sticky it to the top of the forum and people will be able to use it when putting together their posts.

HikingStick wrote:How about this? What if we put together a template with the details we'd like to see in each deckbuilding post? We could sticky it to the top of the forum and people will be able to use it when putting together their posts.

I believe there already is one, but nobody reads/follows it.

TyWooOneTime wrote:

HikingStick wrote:How about this? What if we put together a template with the details we'd like to see in each deckbuilding post? We could sticky it to the top of the forum and people will be able to use it when putting together their posts.

I believe there already is one, but nobody reads/follows it.

Those just seem to be guidelines for the subject lines. Would something more detailed be appropriate?

Sure, not everyone will follow them, but if we can get some improvement...

We also could start replying to messages that don't comply by pointing them to the guidelines.

HikingStick wrote:Those just seem to be guidelines for the subject lines. Would something more detailed be appropriate?
Sure, not everyone will follow them, but if we can get some improvement...
We also could start replying to messages that don't comply by pointing them to the guidelines.

I'm game if everyone else is.

HikingStick wrote: Those just seem to be guidelines for the subject lines. Would something more detailed be appropriate?

Sure, not everyone will follow them, but if we can get some improvement...

We also could start replying to messages that don't comply by pointing them to the guidelines.

I would very much support this, sounds cool.


One idea I thought about a bit lately is that there might be value in consolidating some discussion about deck archetypes. Like all standard Rx aggro in one thread, all Vampires in one thread, or all Orzhov or all Kaalia edh decks in one thread. It would force people to go back and read the thread before asking their question, thus making the discussion progress instead of asking for the same suggestions.

I'm not too sure if other people like that idea, or how to properly encourage users to use those threads instead of opening new ones. It could be mentioned in the guidelines sticky i guess. Sticky-ing some of the more popular threads would help a bit too maybe.

If I've learned anything from my years of experience with various message boards, it's this:

1. The existence of sticky threads does not mean that everyone will read them. No doubt, they are generally helpful to those that do bother to take the time, but don't expect a magic fix. :P

2. The larger an individual thread gets, the less likely people will read back from the start. So, I'm not sure that grouping all similar decks together in one large thread is going to be overly useful as intended or not.


Maybe an idea is breaking up the deck building forum into sub-forums along some of the general types..? You could have some level of organization this way, without newer users feeling overwhelmed by or put out with having to read through large existing threads?

I think sub-forums are a good idea, but some thought should be give to which sub-categories.

Ideas:
Deckbuilding Basics (the Meta game, deck types, synergies, combos, land quantities)
EDH
Standard
Modern
Extended
Vintage
Legacy
Casual ("The Kitchen Table"?)

Maybe some additional sticky topics on the meta game? Heck, I don't know a lot about it. Perhaps that would fit under "Deckbuilding Basics" (added above).

Alternate sub-categories could include:
Basics (Beginners)
Pimp my Deck (Fine-tuning forum)
Combo Corner (Card A + Card B = You Lose)
Tribal

I have to admit, I'm totally against sub-forums, mostly because they have rendered MTGSalvation nearly unreadable and will put a huge amount of pressure on moderators/administrators to be constantly moving topics from one to the other. I think it's better to keep the single forum and use the thread title (or possibly meta-tags on the thread itself?) to differentiate between formats.

LootPinata wrote:I have to admit, I'm totally against sub-forums, mostly because they have rendered MTGSalvation nearly unreadable and will put a huge amount of pressure on moderators/administrators to be constantly moving topics from one to the other. I think it's better to keep the single forum and use the thread title (or possibly meta-tags on the thread itself?) to differentiate between formats.

A fair argument, LootPinata. I don't think there are any easy answers to this.

I'm totally in agreement that there shouldn't be subforums for different deck styles. So far I have seen people asking for advice on more casual decks and personal brews than looking at tweaking a dominant deck. The people who are looking for top-tier competitive decks are already going to the sites that offer a strong community around a specific format (e.g. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forum.php for Legacy). If the decks are geared toward FNM or casual play then keeping everything visible in one spot is the most useful. Otherwise you're going to get people that only read the Legacy section and won't help out with other formats.

You guys make good points. I have to agree subforums might be the wrong thing right now. Then I suppose we keep the status quo.

The 'posting guidelines' suggestion I really like though!

I'll help pull something together as soon as I can snag the time. I'm prepping to teach a new class on Monday, and am WAY behind thanks to all the wonderful GTC evnets recently.

HikingStick wrote:I'm prepping to teach a new class on Monday, and am WAY behind thanks to all the wonderful GTC events recently.

I hear ya there. I'm trying to finish writing my dissertation for a Feb 27th defense date...

As I learn more I plan on using this resource to both give advice and get it, unfortunately in my case I just started playing a week and a half ago and don't have the experience yet to share knowledge. You do bring up a good point though, Ty, as there should be some sort of guideline for someone's time. Then again, this site is all voluntary, so that would be hard to implement.

Since playing at the end of revised (intro to ice-age), I am more familiar with the older cards that deal with legacy/vintage. I am able to pull from my head and skill upon those. With these new sets, abilities, and rule changes, it is more difficult for me to be able to add some insight to standard/modern/extended. I am always willing to assist where I can if I have the ability.

I am still re-working my skill/game with modern/standard on a daily basis. Very partial to quick mana production and zap abilities. But some of my personal favorites are only available in legacy/vintage.

Being able to adapt your game to improve your skill is the purpose of playing this game we enjoy.