Topic: Need input from everyone

When a good trade gets lost in the mail and a site mod doesn't uphold the rules... but instead says they will be rephrased.

the trade https://deckbox.org/trades/262049
the BTR https://deckbox.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=23749
the rules http://deckbox.org/help/trade_rules
the guidelines http://deckbox.org/help/trade_guidelines

In this trade both parties have well over 100+ trades each, both with 100% feedback, both used tracking and one made it to the destination fine, but the other although tracking says delivered it was lost by the postal carrier. The Postmaster of the local Post Office can back this up and is willing to verify in writing the package didn't make it to the destination. The phone number for the Postmaster has also been provided, and the mailbox is a locked mailbox.

After waiting over 3 weeks to see if the package would show up at either end the BRT was opened.

Then things went from casual communication to distrust on the senders part, being on the receiving end I can still understand and relate to the sender and would most likely feel the same way. Things started getting worse when the conversation turned to proof of sending ( tracking ) vs. proof of delivery ( delivery conformation )
but we'll get back to that in a minute.

Then Sebi got involved and thats when it hit the fan.

Sebi says "When tracking is purchased, the receiver gets the loss for lost mail. The sender has done all he can. Closing this."
              "I can try to rephrase the rules if this is confusing there of course."

now thats when I get upset because the site rules / guidelines paint a different picture.

under the Deckbox Trading Rules it says the sender is responsible if they didn't use tracking ( which he did use tracking ) but also says if they don't have proof of delivery they have to resend or make restitution. ( tracking says Delivered, but the Postmaster says NOT Delivered )

2.2. Sending cards. The sender is responsible for getting the cards to the destination. He will be held accountable for items lost in the mail if a form of tracking was not used; proof of sending is not sufficient.
If you as a sender do not have proof of delivery, resend your part of the deal, make monetary restitution or return the cards you received. Resending cards should always use a form of tracking, to avoid further disputes.

and the Trading guidelines and FAQ clearly says the sender is responsible for proving arrival at the destination. If the tracking saying "Delivered" is enough to prove arrival then the Postmaster saying "Not Delivered" should then be proof enough that it wasn't. But if thats not enough it goes on to talk about if the mailman loses the package you the sender will not be reimbursed

Transactions
( parts removed feel free to read whole thing, use link above )
Use delivery confirmation, tracking and insurance for sending cards. As the rules state, you are responsible for proving you send the cards and for their arrival at the destination. If you are not insured, any problem with the post will have to be covered by youself ( that's the sender their referring to ). ( and yes it says "youself"
Use the trade chat. In case of trade disputes, it will be the first thing that moderators will check.
If it is too good to be true, it probably is.
Keep your PM’s, emails, receipts and tracking information. All of these may help the staff investigate potential rippers, so if you can keep them with conveniently it is advised.
!! Regarding tracking – this is the de facto method of ‘protection’ in online trading but it is worth noting that USPS is not responsible for lost packages even if you have tracking on it. To be perfectly clear, if you hand it to a mailman and he loses it on accident, you will not be reimbursed. ( you being the sender ) If they deliver to the destination and a neighborhood kid steals the mail, you will not be reimbursed. These are actual, not hypothetical occurrences. As such, if you are engaged in a high-value transaction, it may behoove you to utilize registered mail (which includes some insurance) or adding insurance to the package so that you are fully covered.

but none of that matters because Semi says so without even asking for conformation from the Postmaster just because the USPS tracking says delivered.

Sebi says "I wrote the rules page, and I am telling you what I mean by them, and what has been applied here for years now. Rule number 2.2 from this page explains the current situation http://deckbox.org/help/trade_rules"
              "I meant it to mean that if tracking is used, the sender is not accountable. If that is not understandable, I can rephrase it, as I said. But that is what the rule means, I wrote it, and that is what I meant by it. I am not changing anything as you say, and I do not want you to lose value in this. But it is not fair to the sender that he loses it either. Please understand this."

Then why did Sebi close the BTR if delivery is in question and an authority on the matter ( Postmaster ) has yet to be asked by the sender or site mods if this is true... is Sebi calling me a liar?

503-570-5703 Wilsonville Oregon Postmasters phone number, she is well aware of this whole situation and is willing to go on the record saying it never got delivered... but thats being ignored.

then...
Sebi says "I am really not sure why you see me as your enemy here...  I am just trying to create a fair trading environment for everyone.
Please put yourself in the other person's shoes. If you send your part with tracking, packaging everything perfectly, and something happens during transport or at the other end, would you like to be the losing side?
I know it is not nice when mail is lost, and I am honestly sorry for your loss, but throwing it on the other person in the trade does not help anything."

It now seems that Sebi is taking what I'm saying personally and thinks that I feel he is my enemy... why?
Put yourself in another persons shoes... what if you are at a restaurant and the chef sends your food out but the waiter drops it on the way, are you out your investment in the meal and you take the lose, or does the chef resend your food out with apologies and the restaurant takes the lose?

Sebi says "I feel enough has been posted on this subject, and I have honestly tried to explain and discuss this trade and situation. Your handling of this dispute seems to continue to be aggressive and inflexible, and the conversation is going nowhere.

               sentiinex, please leave negative feedback for this trade.

               "We can discuss the rule of who is responsible when tracking is used in the SIte Feedback forum, feel free to open a topic, we can discuss and see if the community would see any merit in changing that. As it stands now though, when mail is lost and tracking is purchased, the receiver loses value."

Of course I'm aggressively defending my point and the rules as I read them because the rules don't read the way he "meant them to mean" and the way he meant them to me is absurd if you take into account the POSTMASTER.

Negative feedback...

Why?

I sent my side of the trade with tracking the same time he did
He got my card and is happy with it, I got nothing and can prove it with the help of the Postmaster
I argued my side of the conversation vigorously because I feel the website clearly backs my position

sentiinex never asked to leave negative feedback
Sebi never asked if sentiinex wanted to leave negative feedback
Sebi ASKED sentiinex to please leave negative feedback for this trade

Why?

So what do you think everyone?

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: Need input from everyone

Wally_H wrote:

Negative feedback...

Why?

I'm going to let others discuss this freely, I will only make a single post here, to clarify the quoted question which seems to be addressed to me smile.

Negative feedback has been given because a BTR admin (me in this case) has had a hard time having a conversation with you and reaching a conclusion. The other trader also had the same problem with you. We have also had this problem with you earlier this year on another BTR. This is what a bad trading experience means, and that is what we do NOT want to have here.

Re: Need input from everyone

Sebi was upholding the site rules in the sense that there's a long-established precedent that if a sender uses tracking and the tracking shows that the package arrived, then the sender has fulfilled his or her side of the trade even if the recipient claims to have not received it. The reason for this precedent is obvious - if there's some sort of error at this point, it's *much* more likely to be the recipient's fault than the sender's, and so as a rule we assign the loss to the recipient. This might seem unfair in cases where the recipient is innocent, but *someone* is going to take a loss here and it might as well be the person who's clearly most-*likely* to be at fault. In this case, that would be you. No one at the site wants to interrogate your postmaster over this - that's up to you so that you're properly incentivized to sort these delivery issues out.

This is how it's always worked. The chef analogy is silly because the relationship of traders on this site and shipping companies is not similar to that of a chef hiring a waiter - we can fault a restaurant when a waiter drops your food, we cannot fault a trader on here when they use tracking and a package disappears, which of course opens up the possibility of people abusing the system by claiming to have not received tracked packages.

The one point in your favor on this is that it's not clear what constitutes "proof of delivery" in the rules here. Most people, including me, consider tracking to provide proof of delivery. You're right, though, that there are stronger ways to provide proof of delivery through shipping confirmation. I'll note, however, that one can claim that those don't provide "proof" as well if one pleases - one could just say that any confirmation is erroneous (as you did with the tracking case) and that therefore the sender is still liable for delivery. It would probably be good to make this explicit in the rules.

The bottom line here though is that this outcome is not sebi's fault. He's applying the precedent that everyone understands and will reply to this thread telling you exists. There are very good reasons why we don't make traders resend packages even if tracking shows that they arrived, and thus changing the rules on this would be a bad idea. People in BTRs need to understand that even if they're innocent, then in many cases *someone* is going to take a loss and if the circumstances are such that it's much more-likely that you've done something wrong than your partner than it makes perfect sense for the rules to be structured so that loss is placed on you. It sucks in that particular case but it would suck a lot more if the rules were different.

Re: Need input from everyone

Deleted post by olabolas. (you are interjecting in many BTR threads with flamebait posts and now here. Please stop it). Later edit: banned, probably secondary account of someone with a grudge.

Re: Need input from everyone

Deckbox has been consistent with their judgements that if the sender uses tracking, and the post office fails to deliver, the sender has proved he sent the item.

It is clear to me by reading the rules that if the sender is responsible if they didn't use tracking, then the other side of that is obviously the sender isn't responsible if they did use tracking. If the package was in the post office's hands and they said they put it in your mailbox but didn't, it is not the senders fault. It is the post offices. The fact that they scanned your package and you can see a package was sent to you is the proof the sender can provide.

Wally, I read all the BTR's. Partially to know who to avoid trading with, partially for entertainment value (I rubber neck, sue me) You have had other BTR's where you were aggressive.

I think the rules are clear. The sender isn't responsible when the post office loses the package if they can prove that is what happened. They can prove that, by providing tracking, and the tracking shows the post office was moving the package. A person could buy a shipping label with tracking and not mail it, but it shows that. Once the post office takes the package and starts the process of delivering it, the sender has (assuming they wrote the correct address and packaged it well) done 100% of what they should to get you your package. If it doesn't get to you, it isn't their fault. It is the post office's.

You are looking for some "legal" loophole in the wording of the rules vs. the wording in the guidelines. It isn't going to work because Sebi has ruled on other BTR's in the past the same way, he is being consistent and ruling the same way each time. He intends for senders to not be held responsible when they use tracking and it shows the post office delivered.  The obvious reason is because you generally can't prove you didn't get it. In your case you can get the post master to say you didn't, which is great. It still isn't the senders fault.

I've had 4 trades with lost mail. Two where my package did not arrive, two where their package did not arrive. I also purchased a card from another site that didn't arrive for 3 months. I got a package on November 8th that was post marked August 2nd. The post office screws up sometimes.

You deserve a negative because whenever something goes wrong in your trade you never let it go. You have been involved in two other BTR's and you always argue with the mods about the outcome. I'm fairly sure that is why your getting a negative, because it is clear that if anything should go wrong with the trade you are going to demand the other party be 100% responsible whether or not they actually are. You are unreasonable. I have had you on my do not trade with list for a while.

Last edited by jassi007 (2014-11-19 14:17:52)

Profile|Tradelist|Wishlist

Re: Need input from everyone

jassi007 wrote:

Sebi has ruled on other BTR's in the past the same way, she is being consistent

"He" smile. Sebi is short for Sebastian big_smile

Re: Need input from everyone

sebi wrote:
jassi007 wrote:

Sebi has ruled on other BTR's in the past the same way, she is being consistent

"He" smile. Sebi is short for Sebastian big_smile

Heh. Woops! Corrected.

Profile|Tradelist|Wishlist

Re: Need input from everyone

The mods are making it clear that being marked as delivered is sufficient proof of delivery as far as the onus on the sender is concerned.  I do not view this as the mods "changing" the rules, but rather issuing a clarification of the correct interpretation of the rules.

Is that proof infallible, no...it does happen on occasion that usps makes a mistake and incorrectly scans as delivered; but it certainly establishes a reasonable level of proof that the sender cannot manipulate...only the buyer or usps could be in the wrong if the package is marked as delivered and the sender claims it hasn't arrived.

As an additional note, I have had this happen before...but the package (or insurance) has been recovered in each case by opening a case with usps.  I do believe that a very reasonable policy would be as follows (I do agree that it could be communicated more clearly through rewording in the rules):
a) Tracking indicating that a package has been delivered is sufficient for the burden on the sender with the following 2 caveats:
b) If the receiver claims the package did not arrive, the sender must open a formal case with usps (by calling 800-ask-usps) and provide a case number to the receiver.  Upon doing so the sender has completed all necessary obligations.
c) Both parties may additionally agree before the trades are sent that signature confirmation and/or insurance must be purchased.  If such agreements are noted in the trade chat, a sender must furnish proof of purchase for these services as well as a signature copy (if sig conf) upon request in addition to b)

In specific note on your trade, I don't understand why neither of you have obtained a formal investigation and corresponding case number through usps's national customer service...talking to your local po is NOT the same thing.  If what you are saying is true, and your mailman claims to you he did not deliver it, usps will formally investigate and likely find the package.

Last edited by bactgudz (2014-11-19 14:19:03)

Re: Need input from everyone

The policies at DeckBox seem in line with what is generally accepted.  For comparision, here are the guidelines from PayPal (I've clipped some that are irrelevant):

Seller Protection

If you are sent an unauthorized payment (for example, from a hacked account) or a buyer claims they never received their item, our Seller Protection covers you for the full amount of the payment on eligible sales.  For more information, see user agreement

Protected Sales

Tangible items that are sold and shipped with proof of delivery from within the United States to buyers worldwide. To ensure you’re protected, ship within 7 days to the address that the buyer specifies during checkout. Be upfront about all the details of the item, specifically defects, use, and abnormalities. Also disclose an accurate delivery estimate.

Proof of Delivery

Required for protection eligibility. A digital or physical proof of delivery from the shipping company that should include: ship date, buyer's address, and delivered date.

Items Not Covered

Items that don't match your description, intangible items like services or digital goods, items that violate our or eBay's policies, and items you sell or deliver in person. All are not covered.

Tips

For payments over $750 USD (or local currency equivalent, including shipping and tax) or more, be sure that you have signature confirmation of delivery in addition to proof of shipment (See above). If a buyer files a claim, you must respond to our requests for information as outlined in our communications to you.

You ship the item to the shipping address listed on the PayPal Transaction Details page. If you’re not selling on eBay, make sure you ship to a Confirmed Address. This means that you’re shipping to an address that PayPal has validated to help reduce chances of fraud.

Re: Need input from everyone

bactgudz wrote:

The mods are making it clear that being marked as delivered is sufficient proof of delivery as far as the onus on the sender is concerned.  I do not view this as the mods "changing" the rules, but rather issuing a clarification of the correct interpretation of the rules.

Is that proof infallible, no...it does happen on occasion that usps makes a mistake and incorrectly scans as delivered; but it certainly establishes a reasonable level of proof that the sender cannot manipulate...only the buyer or usps could be in the wrong if the package is marked as delivered and the sender claims it hasn't arrived.

As an additional note, I have had this happen before...but the package (or insurance) has been recovered in each case by opening a case with usps.  I do believe that a very reasonable policy would be as follows (I do agree that it could be communicated more clearly through rewording in the rules):
a) Tracking indicating that a package has been delivered is sufficient for the burden on the sender with the following 2 caveats:
b) If the receiver claims the package did not arrive, the sender must open a formal case with usps (by calling 800-ask-usps) and provide a case number to the receiver.  Upon doing so the sender has completed all necessary obligations.
c) Both parties may additionally agree before the trades are sent that signature confirmation and/or insurance must be purchased.  If such agreements are noted in the trade chat, a sender must furnish proof of purchase for these services as well as a signature copy (if sig conf) upon request in addition to b)

In specific note on your trade, I don't understand why neither of you have obtained a formal investigation and corresponding case number through usps's national customer service...talking to your local po is NOT the same thing.  If what you are saying is true, and your mailman claims to you he did not deliver it, usps will formally investigate and likely find the package.

This is the first time I've made a fuss over a lost package and didn't realize there was a national customer service, hit that up tomorrow

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: Need input from everyone

jassi007 wrote:

Deckbox has been consistent with their judgements that if the sender uses tracking, and the post office fails to deliver, the sender has proved he sent the item.

It is clear to me by reading the rules that if the sender is responsible if they didn't use tracking, then the other side of that is obviously the sender isn't responsible if they did use tracking. If the package was in the post office's hands and they said they put it in your mailbox but didn't, it is not the senders fault. It is the post offices. The fact that they scanned your package and you can see a package was sent to you is the proof the sender can provide.

Wally, I read all the BTR's. Partially to know who to avoid trading with, partially for entertainment value (I rubber neck, sue me) You have had other BTR's where you were aggressive.

I think the rules are clear. The sender isn't responsible when the post office loses the package if they can prove that is what happened. They can prove that, by providing tracking, and the tracking shows the post office was moving the package. A person could buy a shipping label with tracking and not mail it, but it shows that. Once the post office takes the package and starts the process of delivering it, the sender has (assuming they wrote the correct address and packaged it well) done 100% of what they should to get you your package. If it doesn't get to you, it isn't their fault. It is the post office's.

You are looking for some "legal" loophole in the wording of the rules vs. the wording in the guidelines. It isn't going to work because Sebi has ruled on other BTR's in the past the same way, he is being consistent and ruling the same way each time. He intends for senders to not be held responsible when they use tracking and it shows the post office delivered.  The obvious reason is because you generally can't prove you didn't get it. In your case you can get the post master to say you didn't, which is great. It still isn't the senders fault.

I've had 4 trades with lost mail. Two where my package did not arrive, two where their package did not arrive. I also purchased a card from another site that didn't arrive for 3 months. I got a package on November 8th that was post marked August 2nd. The post office screws up sometimes.

You deserve a negative because whenever something goes wrong in your trade you never let it go. You have been involved in two other BTR's and you always argue with the mods about the outcome. I'm fairly sure that is why your getting a negative, because it is clear that if anything should go wrong with the trade you are going to demand the other party be 100% responsible whether or not they actually are. You are unreasonable. I have had you on my do not trade with list for a while.

I don't think the btr on this should be closed yet because the post office has yet to have input. The postmaster said I could come in tomorrow and she would sign off on a statement proving non-delivery.
With that being said I also feel strange about the 163 trades I have under my belt here already. thinking back at all the time I wasted wondering if the package was going to make there or not, as long as I had tracking it didn't seem to matter... I guess if the tracking on this trade still read out for delivery things would be different.

As for past btrs, dude first of all one thing has nothing to do with the other.
1 guy sent me a damaged card marked NM and I felt cheated. Lost that btr
1 guy backed out after addresses exchanged. Lost that btr
This guy sent his cards with tracking... I'm not upset with him, I have stated if I was him I would feel the same as he does.

I think the negative feedback is more to do with the past than the present, that's not cool that a mod with a grudge.

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: Need input from everyone

I think the reason sebi got annoyed with you, understandably, is because you accused him of just making up the ruling and ignoring the wording on the site that you brought up (or at least not accepting your understanding of it), despite multiple people telling you that this is how things worked. You should be able to understand why a tracking site saying that the package made it to your door constitutes "proof of delivery", even if you can imagine other plausible standards existing.

Like jassi007 said, part of the issue here is that you apparently refuse to accept any narrative that would put you at any degree of fault or liability in a disagreement. Not only did this cause you to dispute whether the seller was responsible for resending a tracked package, and not only did this cause you to argue that sebi's initial ruling was wrong, but now it's causing you to argue that sebi had a bad-faith motivation to allow negative feedback to be left for the trade. This is a problem, and it's a problem with you.

Last edited by 9700377 (2014-11-19 15:06:14)

Re: Need input from everyone

Wally_H wrote:

I don't think the btr on this should be closed yet because the post office has yet to have input. The postmaster said I could come in tomorrow and she would sign off on a statement proving non-delivery.
With that being said I also feel strange about the 163 trades I have under my belt here already. thinking back at all the time I wasted wondering if the package was going to make there or not, as long as I had tracking it didn't seem to matter... I guess if the tracking on this trade still read out for delivery things would be different.

As for past btrs, dude first of all one thing has nothing to do with the other.
1 guy sent me a damaged card marked NM and I felt cheated. Lost that btr
1 guy backed out after addresses exchanged. Lost that btr
This guy sent his cards with tracking... I'm not upset with him, I have stated if I was him I would feel the same as he does.

I think the negative feedback is more to do with the past than the present, that's not cool that a mod with a grudge.

The mod doesn't have a grudge. This isn't personal either. These words will be lost on you, because you take everything personally, but Sebi uses negative feedback when a trader demonstrates that they have a recurring problem. Sometimes on one or two BTR's you give a trader the benefit of the doubt. You got the benefit of the doubt on past BTR's even thought you were combatative. This is the 3rd time, you have made it clear this wasn't a hot headed moment etc. your just going to fight about everything whenever a trade goes wrong. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, if your the innocent victim or the guilty party. Your getting a negative because your a jerk, and who wants a jerk for a trading partner? Sebi gave you two chances to stop being a jerk when a trade goes sour, but you haven't taken them. So now everyone you may trade with will see your negative, see your BTR and understand that if the trade doesn't go 100% perfect you are going to be a jerk whether or not they have done something wrong.

Your BTR was closed because no matter what the postmaster says, the sender didn't do wrong and they aren't going to be obligated to send your cards back or compensate you. As far as deckbox is concerned, this is no longer a deckbox issue, they can't and/or won't do anything more.

Last edited by jassi007 (2014-11-19 15:15:54)

Profile|Tradelist|Wishlist

Re: Need input from everyone

The postmaster says they don't know where it is.  That's not the same as saying it wasn't delivered.  All that means is that they can't find it because they don't have it anymore.  One reason why they wouldn't have it might be because they delivered it already.  Considering that that's what the tracking info says they did with it, you can see why, as outsiders not directly involved in the dispute, we might presume that that's what actually happened.

Last edited by IronMagus (2014-11-19 23:07:33)

Re: Need input from everyone

I called 1-800-ask-usps and after waiting for 27mins I talked to someone and they told me to fill a claim online...

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: Need input from everyone

I jump through all the hopes of creating an account on USPS only to find out I can't fill a claim on a package that was sent domestically without insurance...

"The tracking number is not eligible for filing a claim because insurance was not available or purchased for this article."

Last edited by Wally_H (2014-11-20 01:26:29)

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: Need input from everyone

This is my 3rd party take on this situation:

If senders were held responsible for lost mail even after getting tracking then one of two things would happen [1: Trading would come to a massive slow because everyone would have to purchase insurance and small trades would not be worth even shipping. 2: BTR's would go through the roof because any untrustworthy person could lie and say they never received their cards even with tracking saying they did.] So naturally, senders can't be held responsible for every small corner case of mail saying delivered when it actually wasn't. I personally have had this situation occur to me and I just took the loss because there really is no way for me to prove that I never got my cards.

Saying this, however, I think it is very clear that Wally never received his cards and is just trying his best to get something out of his trade that has gone horribly wrong. After reading the BTR it was apparent that the rules are worded in a way that can be very confusing, basically seeming like we have to get insurance on every trade (which is a bit unrealistic.) While unfortunate I think he basically has to take the loss, but should not get negative feedback for trying his best to not lose $100 for nothing.

From the way things are panning out it seems as though Wally has lost that $100 in value and is getting kicked while hes down with the negative feedback. Consider things from his point of view is all I am saying. (Because again, I have been in his exact situation with a smaller trade.)

Re: Need input from everyone

Wally_H wrote:

I jump through all the hopes of creating an account on USPS only to find out I can't fill a claim on a package that was sent domestically without insurance...

"The tracking number is not eligible for filing a claim because insurance was not available or purchased for this article."

No , you only file a claim for insurance...you want an investigation, not a claim.  You need to call and request for an investigation for this unlocated package and ask for them to provide you with a case number.  Be insistent with what you want, don't just roll over when phone support people try to blow you off.

Last edited by bactgudz (2014-11-20 02:52:54)

Re: Need input from everyone

bactgudz wrote:
Wally_H wrote:

I jump through all the hopes of creating an account on USPS only to find out I can't fill a claim on a package that was sent domestically without insurance...

"The tracking number is not eligible for filing a claim because insurance was not available or purchased for this article."

No , you only file a claim for insurance...you want an investigation, not a claim.  You need to call and request for an investigation for this unlocated package and ask for them to provide you with a case number.  Be insistent with what you want, don't just roll over when phone support people try to blow you off.

Ok thank you,  I'll try to do that tomorrow.

Wally_H
Tradelist

http://pwp.wizards.com/3210521644/Scorecards/Landscape.png

Re: Need input from everyone

dave0192 wrote:

This is my 3rd party take on this situation:

If senders were held responsible for lost mail even after getting tracking then one of two things would happen [1: Trading would come to a massive slow because everyone would have to purchase insurance and small trades would not be worth even shipping. 2: BTR's would go through the roof because any untrustworthy person could lie and say they never received their cards even with tracking saying they did.] So naturally, senders can't be held responsible for every small corner case of mail saying delivered when it actually wasn't. I personally have had this situation occur to me and I just took the loss because there really is no way for me to prove that I never got my cards.

Saying this, however, I think it is very clear that Wally never received his cards and is just trying his best to get something out of his trade that has gone horribly wrong. After reading the BTR it was apparent that the rules are worded in a way that can be very confusing, basically seeming like we have to get insurance on every trade (which is a bit unrealistic.) While unfortunate I think he basically has to take the loss, but should not get negative feedback for trying his best to not lose $100 for nothing.

From the way things are panning out it seems as though Wally has lost that $100 in value and is getting kicked while hes down with the negative feedback. Consider things from his point of view is all I am saying. (Because again, I have been in his exact situation with a smaller trade.)

It may seem like the negative is him being kicked when he is down. However, there is a difference between asking for help and accusing the owner of the site of playing favorites etc. Wally is historically combative in BTR's. His problem is he can't accept that when a trade goes wrong someone takes a loss, and he can't accept that it might be him. He then gets really rude with the mods and his trading partners when things aren't going his way. He got a negative for acting like a toddler and lashing out when the world doesn't go his way, not for feeling bad about taking a loss.

Anyone who trades online has to accept they will incur a loss at some point. It is unavoidable. You do your best to ensure your losses are minimal by doing things like using tracking etc but it will happen.

Profile|Tradelist|Wishlist

Re: Need input from everyone

I'd like to point out that the poll at the top of this thread is somewhat misleading. In order to make an informed vote, the potential voter needs a bit more context than just the prompt provided. In my case, I need to know the specific circumstances of the lost mail. Granted, this thread came to be in light of a BTR involving our colleague Wally; that having been said, the prompt is phrased too generally and does not reflect the circumstances of that BTR.

Re: Need input from everyone

Sending something priority comes with tracking and $50 insurance ... why either of you wouldn't spend the extra $1.00 to get insurance on a trade of this value boggles my mind. $5 shipping is just part of the  price you should pay when trading online, and it does put a trading value minimum on trades in my mind.  I wouldn't ship anything less than $10-$20 depending on how bad i needed the cards.

Wally is "passionate" when defending his stance, which i kind of understand and I do think the negative feedback was a little much.  He's obviously been successful trading on the site for some time, and did everything "right" on his side.  Claiming he didn't get the package does not automatically make him a liar or a thief.  I think it should be downgraded to neutral feedback.

We don't know for 100% certainty that he didn't get the cards, we don't know with 100% certainty that he did.  I think it's very unlikely (but not impossible) that something would get lost with tracking. If you look at the instances of people not getting their cards with tracking on deckbox through the BTR forums then our average would be pretty high (context: my wife and I order a great many things online through Amazon and other online retailers that use USPS tracking to date we have always gotten our tracked packages).  Given this I think giving the senders credit when sent with tracking is the right thing to do.  I think we're protecting more people than we're harming that way and I'm sorry if Wally is losing in this trade, but i think it's for the greater good.

Problems i have seen with USPS tracking are not updating properly (usually not until its out for delivery for some reason) and even being routed incorrectly to other locations within the same area and taking longer to arrive as a consequence.

Last edited by elpablo (2014-12-02 14:42:46)

Re: Need input from everyone

sk00gle wrote:

I'd like to point out that the poll at the top of this thread is somewhat misleading. In order to make an informed vote, the potential voter needs a bit more context than just the prompt provided. In my case, I need to know the specific circumstances of the lost mail. Granted, this thread came to be in light of a BTR involving our colleague Wally; that having been said, the prompt is phrased too generally and does not reflect the circumstances of that BTR.

Indeed but that's the way Wally intended it to be, right? tongue

I think clarification in this area would benefit everyone.  Also recommending insurance for anything over $50 is good sense.

The sender is responsible for sending correctly, which includes using tracking etc... if the sender doesn't send correctly then they are responsible.  Sending without tracking is a risk the sender is willfully taking. If they do send with tracking then they did their job, imo.

Everyone needs to also understand that the traders on here are not a business in general and even if they are their small businesses (shop owners) and usually can't afford to take a personal loss and just resend product like an Amazon or a Wal-Mart.  This is why it feels so personal when things don't work out.  It hurts in a very real way when you have to pay someone out of pocket or resend cards or lose value on a bad trade (USPS or not).  Sebi and team are doing a decent job running things and there's only so much they can do, but I wish people would do more research and have a better understanding of what they're getting into.

Re: Need input from everyone

elpablo wrote:

The sender is responsible for sending correctly, which includes using tracking etc... if the sender doesn't send correctly then they are responsible.  Sending without tracking is a risk the sender is willfully taking. If they do send with tracking then they did their job, imo.

Everyone needs to also understand that the traders on here are not a business in general and even if they are their small businesses (shop owners) and usually can't afford to take a personal loss and just resend product like an Amazon or a Wal-Mart.  This is why it feels so personal when things don't work out.  It hurts in a very real way when you have to pay someone out of pocket or resend cards or lose value on a bad trade (USPS or not).  Sebi and team are doing a decent job running things and there's only so much they can do, but I wish people would do more research and have a better understanding of what they're getting into.

True but it is honestly crazy to trade cards via mail and not expect some loss. With big trades you def. want to do all you can to protect yourself, I did a $500+ trade for some duals recently and I surely sent it priority with tracking and insurance, it cost me $20 but that is money well spent to not get screwed on a $500 trade.

Most people set a threshold. I'll accept having to on the rare occasion pay out on a $5-10 trade. Or some people say I won't do any trade under $20 or 30 and i'll track all of them. They are all reasonable options. Even so, sometimes the post office will lose mail, it is inevitable. Mail trade requires trust.

Profile|Tradelist|Wishlist

Re: Need input from everyone

elpablo wrote:

Sending something priority comes with tracking and $50 insurance ... why either of you wouldn't spend the extra $1.00 to get insurance on a trade of this value boggles my mind.

Would insurance actually cover a case where the package is marked as delivered but the recipient claims never actually arrived?

I've sent something like over 80 trades and have yet to have a package simply lost in a way that only insurance would clearly deal with. Thus I don't really miss it. Maybe I'm naive.