Topic: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

We are excited to announce the next big Deckbox release - version 3.0.  This is a very special release for us, one that comes 6 years after the starting work on the initial idea for this website:

commit 90c7012d3f8847b675ebbf559d3b240043b53ddb
Author: Sebastian Zaha <s...@gmail.com>
Date:   Thu Mar 27 18:43:43 2008 +0000
    Initial import

We always wanted to become the best MtG singles trading website on the net, and we have not given up on that goal. Two big things were stopping us from realizing it: features helping users to sell cards to one another, and more practically - resources (time and money to enable full time developers and support people). But we're about to fix all that!


Introducing the Deckbox Market

http://deckbox.org/system/images/forum/3_0_ann/sellers.png

This release will allow users to become sellers! No more micro managing singles on ebay, now you can manage your collection, tradelist, sales and purchases directly on Deckbox.

There are many other services for selling singles on the internet, but we want to create one that has users (as opposed to big stores) as the main target. We want to create a usable, intuitive and solid platform for person-to-person trading and selling.

Becoming a seller is quick and painless: you need a verified PayPal account to be able to receive payments from other users, and to read and agree to our Market Rules and Terms and Conditions. We also require a verification payment of 10$ (this is not a fee, you will receive it back as a discount on your first Deckbox Bill). More info on the selling cards page.

As a seller you will be able to add prices to the cards in your tradelist. Other Deckbox users will automatically see your listings if they have those cards in their wishlist. When a buyer makes a purchase, the money will be directly sent to your paypal account. We will take care of notifying you of the purchase via email, and then you can get the package ready for shipping:

http://deckbox.org/system/images/forum/3_0_ann/orders.png

Buyers will leave feedback for sellers, much like the trade feedback. Taking care of fast and careful packaging & shipping will ensure your seller score will stay positive.

Please take a look over the few documents on fees, seller protection program and market rules, in the Sellers  section of our help pages.

This is all just the beginning. We have many plans to improve the Market in the coming months! Price histories for cards, with nice graphs. Statistics of most collected / traded / sold cards, and many other goodies.


Other features and changes

We intend to smoothen and tighten the trading process and Bad Trading Report resolutions. Please take a look at our revamped Market Rules. We intend to streamline the BTR process, allowing for less discussions and arguing. We will be faster and prompter in awarding negative feedback and suspending users. Furthermore, people that are defendants in
BTRs are not allowed to open trades until the BTR is solved. People that open BTRs without having a good reason will also receive negative feedback.

Please take a look at our updated Terms and Conditions and  Market Rules documents. Also check out the brand new guide on packing and shipping cards, courtesy of our awesome user marumari.

We've added a Vacation Mode. Find the setting by clicking on Edit Profile.

We have also acquired a second server and set up better performance monitoring tools, to get the site speed and experience to top-notch levels.

Upcoming

Next we want to finally deliver on our promises for a public API. We know many of you would like to implement cool apps for phones & other devices, and we want to give you the tools to do so. We want to start making a clearer plan for it next month, and come out with at least the read-only calls at some point in May.

In parallel, we also promised to include the missing promo editions to our database, and we know many of you also wish to track tokens. We'll be looking at that as soon as we can.

Thank you for reading and as always, we look forward to your feedback!


[Update] We have started to compile a list of Frequently Asked Questions. Check it out here: http://deckbox.org/help/market_faq. Thank you for all the feedback and questions, keep them coming!

Last edited by sebi (2014-03-25 14:43:09)

Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

This is so exciting, thanks Sebi and Team!

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

Quick question about the selling fees.  Does the 6.9% include the PayPal fee incurred by selling through PayPal or is it a separate charge?

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

The idea is really cool, but there are some details that are fuzzy:

1. Will we be able to create separate lists to sell from. I don't want to combine my trading and my selling in the same list.
2. How does charging for shipping work? Is it fixed, can we change it?
3. Can we implement a minimum order amount? I know for me as a trader who dabbles in selling, I don't want to be shipping out 5 dollars worth of cards. I'm not a store, so its not worth the time really.
4. Can we still accept paypal gift as payment?
5. What can we expect for the 7% fee? Will upgrades to the system be coming? I know upgrades have been historically slow since you don't do this as a job, will that change if the feature is used heavily enough?
6. Will an option to list sealed product be coming?

Thanks for all your hard work, you have created a great product and community!

Last edited by tjdrake719 (2014-03-24 17:26:31)

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

Nevpicasso wrote:

Quick question about the selling fees.  Does the 6.9% include the PayPal fee incurred by selling through PayPal or is it a separate charge?

Good question. I might have to clarify this in the Fees document. Our fee is a separate charge from the paypal one.

It works much like on Etsy or other marketplaces: the buyer makes a payment directly to your paypal account. Paypal will at this point take a fee for the transfer from you.

Then at the end of the month we will issue you a bill for 6.9% of all the sales you have made the previous month.

Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

tjdrake719 wrote:

1. Will we be able to create separate lists to sell from. I don't want to combine my trading and my selling in the same list.

Not straight at the beginning. Right now you just get another price column in your tradelist, which you can edit to whatever you want. All cards you set prices for are considered to be for sale.

2. How does charging for shipping work? Is it fixed, can we change it?

When you sign up to be a seller you can set the shipping fees that you wish.

3. Can we implement a minimum order amount? I know for me as a trader who dabbles in selling, I don't want to be shipping out 5 dollars worth of cards. I'm not a store, so its not worth the time really.

Very good point. We do not yet have such a feature, but I want to add it soon.  In the mean time, you can write this information on your 'Bio' on your profile.

4. Can we still accept paypal gift as payment?

Nope, we will strongly discourage that, because gifts are not refundable. We want buyers to be able to be protected as well, and to be able to make refund claims in case sellers lie about sending stuff.

5. What can we expect for the 7% fee? Will upgrades to the system be coming? I know upgrades have been historically slow since you don't do this as a job, will that change if the feature is used heavily enough?

Well, it just became a job smile. Not yet full time, but I'm working full 3 days a week (5 with the weekend big_smile) on it now. If it is popular we actually want to hire some people to help with development and support. So the answer is a definite YES, features will keep coming.

6. Will an option to list sealed product be coming?

At some point yes, but no promises on timeline. It's on our list, but low priority. API & missing editions first.

Last edited by sebi (2014-03-24 17:35:41)

Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

sebi wrote:
tjdrake719 wrote:

1. Will we be able to create separate lists to sell from. I don't want to combine my trading and my selling in the same list.

Not straight at the beginning. Right now you just get another price column in your tradelist, which you can edit to whatever you want. All cards you set prices for are considered to be for sale.

2. How does charging for shipping work? Is it fixed, can we change it?

When you sign up to be a seller you can set the shipping fees that you wish.

3. Can we implement a minimum order amount? I know for me as a trader who dabbles in selling, I don't want to be shipping out 5 dollars worth of cards. I'm not a store, so its not worth the time really.

Very good point. We do not yet have such a feature, but I want to add it soon.  In the mean time, you can write this information on your 'Bio' on your profile.

4. Can we still accept paypal gift as payment?

Nope, we will strongly discourage that, because gifts are not refundable. We want buyers to be able to be protected as well, and to be able to make refund claims in case sellers lie about sending stuff.

5. What can we expect for the 7% fee? Will upgrades to the system be coming? I know upgrades have been historically slow since you don't do this as a job, will that change if the feature is used heavily enough?

Well, it just became a job smile. Not yet full time, but I'm working full 3 days a week (5 with the weekend big_smile) on it now. If it is popular we actually want to hire some people to help with development and support. So the answer is a definite YES, features will keep coming.

6. Will an option to list sealed product be coming?

At some point, no promises, it's on our list, but low priority. API & missing editions first.

Awesome, thanks for the prompt reply.

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

Are you guys going to add the ability to look for cards for sale or individuals that are selling cards?

Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

Not straight at the beginning. Right now you just get another price column in your tradelist, which you can edit to whatever you want. All cards you set prices for are considered to be for sale.

Are we obligated to sell at the price shown, per website rules?

The reason I ask is, well, just look at card price spikes lately as a result of the Modern events. Let's say that I had a couple Ensnaring Bridge in my sale list (prior to the spike) marked at $11/each, because that was a decent price for them at the time. Then, I go away for a relaxing weekend with the wife and, in the meantime, the card blows up... doubling in price, and, of course, people are all over mine at the $11 price tag because it's not updated/adjusted for the spike.

I guess what I'm asking is -- are we held accountable to updating prices in real time (I know you can set an option to be X% of tcgplayer, but that's been lagging lately)? Or, do we have the final say on a sale without negative feedback or breaking site rules?

Last edited by outofstep (2014-03-24 17:44:40)

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

outofstep wrote:

Not straight at the beginning. Right now you just get another price column in your tradelist, which you can edit to whatever you want. All cards you set prices for are considered to be for sale.

Are we obligated to sell at the price shown, per website rules?

The reason I ask is, well, just look at card price spikes lately as a result of the Modern events. Let's say that I had a couple Ensnaring Bridge in my sale list (prior to the spike) marked at $11/each, because that was a decent price for them at the time. Then, I go away for a relaxing weekend with the wife and, in the meantime, the card blows up... doubling in price, and, of course, people are all over mine at the $11 price tag because it's not updated/adjusted for the spike.

I guess what I'm asking is -- are we held accountable to updating prices in real time (I know you can set an option to be X% of tcgplayer, but that's been lagging lately)? Or, do we have the final say on a sale without negative feedback or breaking site rules?

I really hope the answer to this is you are obligated to sell at the price you have listed. Nothing is more infuriating as a buyer to buy a card and be told the price has gone up after they have paid. I also hope we can leave negative feedback for sellers that do this.

Magic is a volatile market, and any seller should have a clear understanding of this. Price your cards at whatever you want, but if you say I want $10 and someone pays your $10, you should not be able to cancel or change prices after the fact. If you go away for the weekend, put your account on vacation mode. I'm sure that is one of the reasons the deckbox team added it.

Last edited by jassi007 (2014-03-24 17:48:31)

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

outofstep wrote:

Not straight at the beginning. Right now you just get another price column in your tradelist, which you can edit to whatever you want. All cards you set prices for are considered to be for sale.

Are we obligated to sell at the price shown, per website rules?

The reason I ask is, well, just look at card price spikes lately as a result of the Modern events. Let's say that I had a couple Ensnaring Bridge in my sale list (prior to the spike) marked at $11/each, because that was a decent price for them at the time. Then, I go away for a relaxing weekend with the wife and, in the meantime, the card blows up... doubling in price, and, of course, people are all over mine at the $11 price tag because it's not updated/adjusted for the spike.

I guess what I'm asking is -- are we held accountable to updating prices in real time (I know you can set an option to be X% of tcgplayer, but that's been lagging lately)? Or, do we have the final say on a sale without negative feedback or breaking site rules?

Great question.

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

Furnacedragon wrote:

Are you guys going to add the ability to look for cards for sale or individuals that are selling cards?

Yep. Right now sellers are shown already on the card pages. See for example Boros%20Reckoner or Verdant Catacombs.

We also added a little section on all users profiles which shows them when cards in their wishlist become available for buying, and from whom.

Also, if you visit a user's profile (mine for example: http://deckbox.org/users/sebi ), you also see a section that shows you which cards in your wishlist are for sale from that person.

(Note that you cannot buy from me, because I'm in Austria now, and for the time being we only allow sales in the same country).

Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

outofstep wrote:

Are we obligated to sell at the price shown, per website rules?

You have to sell at the price you have when the buyer pays for the order. If I made an order and paid for it, you have to ship what I bought.

Please note, as these are not trades, there is no "accept" stage for you as a seller. If a buyer sees what you have to sell and pays, you sold it.

To address the problem with leaving and coming back to surprises, we have added a Vacation Mode. Setting it to on will prevent anyone to trade you stuff or to buy things from you.

We want to add more powerful market tools too, which can analyze your tradelist and show which cards you are selling way below market value or way above market value, to help with managing sales inventories.

Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

(Note that you cannot buy from me, because I'm in Austria now, and for the time being we only allow sales in the same country).

But do buy from me if you are also in Austria though! lol

Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

Is it prohibited to do selling via forum posts from here on out?

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

sebi wrote:
outofstep wrote:

Are we obligated to sell at the price shown, per website rules?

You have to sell at the price you have when the buyer pays for the order. If I made an order and paid for it, you have to ship what I bought.

Please note, as these are not trades, there is no "accept" stage for you as a seller. If a buyer sees what you have to sell and pays, you sold it.

To address the problem with leaving and coming back to surprises, we have added a Vacation Mode. Setting it to on will prevent anyone to trade you stuff or to buy things from you.

We want to add more powerful market tools too, which can analyze your tradelist and show which cards you are selling way below market value or way above market value, to help with managing sales inventories.

Is there any possibility of an 'accept' feature for sellers. Given that the api only updates daily, I also would like to avoid getting burned on spikes.

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

It might be a small wording issue, but I'd like to get verification.  Our initial $10 payment is stated to be returned on the first bill.  To accumulate $10 in fees, we'd need about $144 in sales.  If we don't have that much in our first month, will the credit carry over?

I would also like to know what the 6.9% will be going towards.

Last but not least, since we have the option to set our prices to a percentage of TCGPlayer Average, will this be update sooner/more often than it is now?

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

Next we want to finally deliver on our promises for a public API.

What I see happening, very soon is, someone (or lots of people) are going to create websites or apps that scrape data from tcgplayer.com and deckbox.com, compare the two and show them sellers that have a card (or multiple cards) for sale less than X% of current market value. Your website rules are going to hold them to that outdated price.

I realize that you guys want the revenue from card sales on this site, but remember that the vast majority of people who are going to sell cards through here aren't professional level stores with a large revenue stream. Losing $10 to a price spike on a card while you're at work or asleep is going to suck, for almost everyone.

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

1. What is the advantage of using paypal over bank account transfers (like TCG does)?

2. Is their an option to link bank account information instead to circumvent some of the fees induced through paypal?

3. Searching for a card: Is their an option to search for a card I want to buy (or trade) rather then finding people who only want cards off my wishlist?

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

dorvaan wrote:

It might be a small wording issue, but I'd like to get verification.  Our initial $10 payment is stated to be returned on the first bill.  To accumulate $10 in fees, we'd need about $144 in sales.  If we don't have that much in our first month, will the credit carry over?

Yep, the credit will carry over until whenever we bill you first. Right now the treshhold setting is 10$, so we only issue bills if you owe more than that, no point in making a lot of very small payments. Hence, with the 10$ discount, you will get your first bill once you sell cards worth of 288$.

I would also like to know what the 6.9% will be going towards.

It will be going towards building deckbox as a business. That is: paying developer work, support work, accountants, server hosting fees, administration, maintenance, etc.

Last but not least, since we have the option to set our prices to a percentage of TCGPlayer Average, will this be update sooner/more often than it is now?

Yep, we'll update it twice daily, and also in the future we will provide our own Deckbox price, which will be an average over all sellers on the deckbox market.

Also note, the x% of tcgplayer setting is just to pre-fill prices. It does not continuously update prices, just sets them once. If you want to keep them up to date, you have to do it manually, or re-set them via the dialog.

We will also provide in the future a setting which will keep the prices always in sync, but right now that is not implemented. (It would also be a very dangerous thing, since it would change prices for cards you are selling without you seeing it.)

Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

Is there/will there be a way to update pricing information via csv upload?

To those who are worried about "losing" money to a price spike: don't list cards if you aren't willing to sell them at that price.

Also, I can answer this:

1. What is the advantage of using paypal over bank account transfers (like TCG does)?

2. Is their an option to link bank account information instead to circumvent some of the fees induced through paypal?

The buyers are paying through paypal, not with a bank account. On tcgplayer, the buyers are paying with paypal directly to tcgplayer, and then tcgplayer later uses a bank transfer to avoid doubling the paypal fees. This system simply eliminates that middle step, sending the paypal directly to you, but giving you a separate bill once per month.

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

sebi wrote:

Also note, the x% of tcgplayer setting is just to pre-fill prices. It does not continuously update prices, just sets them once. If you want to keep them up to date, you have to do it manually, or re-set them via the dialog.


I think this is a VERY important distinction.  It's probably worth putting in the rules, as this isn't how I interpreted it, and judging by some of the other posts, I don't think others are either.

Thank you for clarifying, however.

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

outofstep wrote:

Next we want to finally deliver on our promises for a public API.

What I see happening, very soon is, someone (or lots of people) are going to create websites or apps that scrape data from tcgplayer.com and deckbox.com, compare the two and show them sellers that have a card (or multiple cards) for sale less than X% of current market value. Your website rules are going to hold them to that outdated price.

I realize that you guys want the revenue from card sales on this site, but remember that the vast majority of people who are going to sell cards through here aren't professional level stores with a large revenue stream. Losing $10 to a price spike on a card while you're at work or asleep is going to suck, for almost everyone.

This rabbit hole has no logical end. How does anyone anywhere ever deal with having a card for sale somewhere at price X and then the prices rises to Y. Cards get sold at price X after the price rises to Y on ebay, channel fireball, starcity, tcgplayer, etc etc. Demand usually clears out stock and then restock comes in at a higher price. It isn't that everyone has 100 of every card, and someone says "I'm selling at Y now!" and everyone else gets bought out immediately at the old price.

Yes you can arbitrage prices a bit. This already happens. Quiet Speculation has had an arbitrage tool for a while.  http://www.quietspeculation.com/tt3/?ac … set_id=319  It hasn't caused all sellers to just fold up because they missed out on some percentage of profit.

I'm sorry but if someone sells and can't accept that card prices go up never sell your cards. Underground Sea was worth $20 at one point and now its $300 on Star City.

Last edited by jassi007 (2014-03-24 18:23:11)

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

I think this is a wonderful new service that a lot of people are going to make use of, they'll just use it as a means of selling a small list/set of cards at a time and no one will ever use it as a way to sell their entire inventory or trade list.

Sebi, you should take questions in this thread for a day or so and then use it to compile a FAQ, as there are some very good questions and answers.

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Re: Release 3.0: Deckbox Market

outofstep wrote:

Next we want to finally deliver on our promises for a public API.

What I see happening, very soon is, someone (or lots of people) are going to create websites or apps that scrape data from tcgplayer.com and deckbox.com, compare the two and show them sellers that have a card (or multiple cards) for sale less than X% of current market value. Your website rules are going to hold them to that outdated price.

I realize that you guys want the revenue from card sales on this site, but remember that the vast majority of people who are going to sell cards through here aren't professional level stores with a large revenue stream. Losing $10 to a price spike on a card while you're at work or asleep is going to suck, for almost everyone.

I'm generally Ok with this.  I've come to accept that fact that if I list something on TCG player or online anywhere really with a price, that I could lose money (or rather more accurately potential profit) when it sells.  That said, if I'm ok with that price when I list it, then that's the amount I expect.  Yes at times you will lose money, and yes at times you will need to be the cheapest price in order to even get the sale which means you aren't getting the TCG player Average, but usually a percent of the lowest price, but you're still moving the card and getting paid, and having the money go straight to PayPal as opposed to waiting a week to get it from TCG Player is actually a benefit in my mind.

Also, Sebi this is an amazing update.  Thank you.  The primary reason I don't sell more cards on TCG Player is that I don't want to deal with having to constantly update my inventory when I make trades on Deckbox, or keep up with their clunky interface.  Having a seller account on Deckbox is awesome.

Question, when you mark something as shipped, is there a place to put in a tracking number? I'd like to have this saved with the order for easy reference.

Last edited by gumgodMTG (2014-03-24 18:42:33)

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