Helios52 wrote:

Website is nearly unusable as is...

This is the most overreactive statement Ive seen. The fact that all your cards and decks are still listed and stored in once place means nothing? Trading didnt stop. Is it really that much extra work to have an extra browser window open next to deckbox to TCG or SCG or ebay or mtgprice or wherever to do a quick search of the current price of a card? Sure this is an extra step in the process but honestly, if you are that concerned about having the most current price of a card when completing a trade/sale, this should be something done regardless if a price generated automatically or an idea in your head on how much its worth.

Im honestly shocked by the amount of negativity and the lack of patience some people have.

I think one of the main points is this is up front a temporary transition state from what it was to what it will be. People aren't out of line for waiting to see what is coming next. Also I think you can appreciate Amazon's pricing information is bad. It would be better to leave pricing data out completely than have very unreliable data.

No, a valid reaction is " Im going to hold off trading/selling for the moment until this gets fixed to an acceptable level". Saying the site is "nearly unusable" is overreactive to the everything else deckbox does that those MANY other forums do not.

Sidewayzracer wrote:cancelled all open trades due to this pricing issue that adding the market place has caused. Now past trades i cant track the performance of them or my collection value awesome.

Let me know when this is fixed so i can bother with this site again

Well That's incredibly rude.. These regular people have put in all their time and dedication to provide us with a well established trading service for free!
I probably wouldnt even be playing modern, OR the standard decks I wanted to play if it wasnt for deckbox trading without spending a silly amount of cash on additional cards. Deckbox is the best thing that has happened to me during my time playing MTG.

Also, why would you cancel your existing trades, is it really that difficult to open another browser to reference prices during this TCGPlayer dilemma? I feel sorry for the people that were trading were you.

I am very sad that TCGPlayer has done this to Deckbox, but their Idea is very impressive and I like shopping from them (when I cant trade for what I want) as is. However, this is just a crazy good strategy for them.

Like others have suggested, maybe we can hop on the MTGPrice/MTGStocks API data until deckbox data is a little more established...

@Jassi007 - I wont disagree that the choice of Amazon was not the best but in retrospect, it was probably the most reputable source Sebi could have gone with TCG no longer an option and on such short notice. To be fair, TCG could have done this at anytime, granted the market place could have pushed the situation to what it is now, but its a process of transition that would have had to take place eventually anyway.

Mnemonic wrote:Also, why would you cancel your existing trades, is it really that difficult to open another browser to reference prices during this TCGPlayer dilemma? I feel sorry for the people that were trading were you.

I know, right? HOW DID ANYONE EVER TRADE ONLINE BEFORE THIS DEVASTATING CATASTROPHE?!?!?!

Deckbox team, you could take the position of: Our service was so convenient and useful, that people forgot how to live without it...

Helios52 wrote:

Website is nearly unusable as is...

This is the most overreactive statement Ive seen. The fact that all your cards and decks are still listed and stored in once place means nothing? Trading didnt stop. Is it really that much extra work to have an extra browser window open next to deckbox to TCG or SCG or ebay or mtgprice or wherever to do a quick search of the current price of a card? Sure this is an extra step in the process but honestly, if you are that concerned about having the most current price of a card when completing a trade/sale, this should be something done regardless if a price generated automatically or an idea in your head on how much its worth.

Im honestly shocked by the amount of negativity and the lack of patience some people have.

It's more than that, it becomes nearly impossible to find cards of a specific value to even our trades. You have to know the value of each card independently, as you can no longer organize cards in a tradelist by price and expect any meaningful result (though if anyone wants my Promo Grave Titans for $99 I'm happy to trade those at that value). At this point, a lot of the utility of the site's functions disappear, and it just becomes a worse version of looking through a binder, since not even the owner of the tradelist can organize to put the more valueable cards at the front of the binder, its just this chaotic mess.

I hope the pricing issues are resolved quickly, otherwise this site's utility has entirely disappeared for trading purposes.

Yeah I don't think it's necessary to voice that this pricing thing is a huge issue. It's pretty obvious to everyone, including the dev team. It's also equally obvious that they couldn't continue using the TCGPlayer API with legal threats on their backs.

I'm fine with just waiting a little while to see how they fix the pricing issue.

Helios52 wrote:No, a valid reaction is " Im going to hold off trading/selling for the moment until this gets fixed to an acceptable level". Saying the site is "nearly unusable" is overreactive to the everything else deckbox does that those MANY other forums do not.

I also think that how each person uses the site is variable. So what is unusable for one person is perfectly fine for another.

three_toe wrote:

Mnemonic wrote:Also, why would you cancel your existing trades, is it really that difficult to open another browser to reference prices during this TCGPlayer dilemma? I feel sorry for the people that were trading were you.

I know, right? HOW DID ANYONE EVER TRADE ONLINE BEFORE THIS DEVASTATING CATASTROPHE?!?!?!

Deckbox team, you could take the position of: Our service was so convenient and useful, that people forgot how to live without it...

I will be the first to admit that this is true for me. It's a lot of the reason I'm so upset. There was a time in my life when I didn't have a vehicle of my own. Now that I do, if it were suddenly taken from me, yes I would live. But you can be damned sure that I'd be amazingly annoyed. :(

mcnealysbaby wrote: Why not take out your frustration on TCG's legal department instead of the guy who spends many hours of his free time creating a free website for your enjoyment and benefit?

This. The sense of entitlement is strong in this thread.

Thank you sebi and others involved in this site for your hard work and being so frank and open with us. Given the belligerence in the marketplace for pricing (SCG, TCG, etc.) I would sort out your options and solidify your planning before annoucing your next steps; while you're likely doing this to get some awareness and feedback, this isn't a democracy here.

Helios52 wrote:No, a valid reaction is " Im going to hold off trading/selling for the moment until this gets fixed to an acceptable level". Saying the site is "nearly unusable" is overreactive to the everything else deckbox does that those MANY other forums do not.

sorry I tend to gloss over hyperbolic statements on the internet, I'd like to think most people that use the internet for some time learn to ignore them. Yes of course statements like that are unreasonable, but they arent' really the point either. I understand this isn't a choice per say, the whole pricing thing, but it is unexpected, which tends to draw reactions out of people, and amazon is not a good pricing data source for magic cards. I think that is the main point people want to express, that a sudden switch of pricing data to a less than reliable source is making people more reserved about transaction on deckbox, given that it was stated up front today that this is a transition and not the new final form of pricing data. It is better, for me at least, to regroup and see what comes next than to boldly plow ahead with inferior data. Yes I could do my own pricing with a trade partner, but I don't have anything I need to acquire pressingly to bother at this point in time. I'm not going to ignore deckbox, I'm just not going to open or accept new trades for a little bit.

biffz0r wrote:

mcnealysbaby wrote: Why not take out your frustration on TCG's legal department instead of the guy who spends many hours of his free time creating a free website for your enjoyment and benefit?

This. The sense of entitlement is strong in this thread.

Thank you sebi and others involved in this site for your hard work and being so frank and open with us. Given the belligerence in the marketplace for pricing (SCG, TCG, etc.) I would sort out your options and solidify your planning before annoucing your next steps; while you're likely doing this to get some awareness and feedback, this isn't a democracy here.

I think that pricing data is something of value to those sites. I personally wouldn't give it away either to competitors.

laura wrote:...yes, we expected TcgPlayer to not be happy, but we didn't expected them to be unhappy so soon :-) I am not trying to get your sympathy or pity, I am simply explaining why proper market research wasn't done, why we chose to add the martketplace and why we added the Amazon prices.

Thank you, this is a proper response to the "crisis at hand"....Just decrying TCG for being a bully and mean to you on the playground is a poor way to represent your newly founded business. No corporate entity would allow a competitor to get all its hard work for free...unless you will go on record stating that you will allow any competing site to fully index your prices and use them to undercut you? :)

The sense of the inevitability of TCGplayer's actions being relayed by the site's administration is a bit disturbing to me. Take responsibility for your actions. You all decided to take on TCGplayer, you should have been more prepared to do so and much less surprised about the outcome. Please stop acting/responding as if you're being unfairly maligned by your users and unjustly treated by TCGplayer.

laura wrote: I understand this ruins some people's trades at the moment and we are in a less than comfortable place right now, but as mentioned before, it is not a permanent solution.

So please, bear with us, we understand and we are working on it :)

I dunno. I think the people who are complaining should get a FULL refund. :P

rixan wrote:

laura wrote:...yes, we expected TcgPlayer to not be happy, but we didn't expected them to be unhappy so soon :-) I am not trying to get your sympathy or pity, I am simply explaining why proper market research wasn't done, why we chose to add the martketplace and why we added the Amazon prices.

Thank you, this is a proper response to the "crisis at hand"....Just decrying TCG for being a bully and mean to you on the playground is a poor way to represent your newly founded business. No corporate entity would allow a competitor to get all its hard work for free...unless you will go on record stating that you will allow any competing site to fully index your prices and use them to undercut you? :)

I agree. This bit from Laura is the best (and perhaps the only acceptable) response from the site's administration in this thread.

these amazon prices are all over the place. It is making it so i am unable to speculate trades, and it takes alot of effort to go through each individual card and get the tcg link, this is very saddening.

Helios52 wrote:

Website is nearly unusable as is...

This is the most overreactive statement Ive seen. The fact that all your cards and decks are still listed and stored in once place means nothing? Trading didnt stop. Is it really that much extra work to have an extra browser window open next to deckbox to TCG or SCG or ebay or mtgprice or wherever to do a quick search of the current price of a card? Sure this is an extra step in the process but honestly, if you are that concerned about having the most current price of a card when completing a trade/sale, this should be something done regardless if a price generated automatically or an idea in your head on how much its worth.

Im honestly shocked by the amount of negativity and the lack of patience some people have.

It's all perspective man. You go ahead and put in all the extra effort you want... I traded within deckbox exclusively because of ease of use. I don't have time to mess with everything you're suggesting and will not be trading online until deckbox fixes their stuff or i find another website that's equally as useful.

There are high volume traders on here that will feel the same way, i guarantee it. And judging by the comments to your post most people already do.

Edit: And as I said in response to Sebi's response. I"ll be back and I'm rooting for them, but I just don't have time to waste using a site that doesn't provide the features I'm looking for. I was fine trading with people in person before. I'll go back to that as a primary source for trading.

Bottom, line deckbox had a customer base built in that respected them and the service they provided. This hiccup is a major over-site because it sends a message. If they can't handle a transaction to a market place based system that uses their own information how will they mange the market place when it's in full force? Consumer confidence is important to this type of business.

buughost wrote:Is this because you guys explicitly added a market/sales functionality? If so... Get rid of it. I feel like your primary user base is traders not sellers (though I could be wrong). Maybe you should do some research or poll your active user base. I've sold stuff here occasionally, but I'd rather have TCG pricing integrated rather than a specific sales function.

I totally agree with buughost. If the problem stems from you adding a market/sales functionality, get rid of it! I, for one, only use Deckbox to catalog and trade cards. I would much rather have a reliable pricing structure than a silly sales function. I can sell my cards anywhere (LGS, eBay, Amazon, online card stores, etc). Deckbox is too valuable a website to me (and others) to see it become a casualty over an unnecessary function.

A bit off topic revenue wise, but a few suggestions in addition to selling:

*Subscription service - Add some additional functionality for like a dollar a month.
*Donations - Put paypal donate button on my profile page. I would be happy to support deckbox, but I don't see the option.

ballth wrote:

buughost wrote:Is this because you guys explicitly added a market/sales functionality? If so... Get rid of it. I feel like your primary user base is traders not sellers (though I could be wrong). Maybe you should do some research or poll your active user base. I've sold stuff here occasionally, but I'd rather have TCG pricing integrated rather than a specific sales function.

I totally agree with buughost. If the problem stems from you adding a market/sales functionality, get rid of it! I, for one, only use Deckbox to catalog and trade cards. I would much rather have a reliable pricing structure than a silly sales function. I can sell my cards anywhere (LGS, eBay, Amazon, online card stores, etc). Deckbox is too valuable a website to me (and others) to see it become a casualty over an unnecessary function.

You missed the part where they said if they didn't add the market to monetize the site then they'd shut it down.

jassi007 wrote:

ballth wrote:

buughost wrote:Is this because you guys explicitly added a market/sales functionality? If so... Get rid of it. I feel like your primary user base is traders not sellers (though I could be wrong). Maybe you should do some research or poll your active user base. I've sold stuff here occasionally, but I'd rather have TCG pricing integrated rather than a specific sales function.

I totally agree with buughost. If the problem stems from you adding a market/sales functionality, get rid of it! I, for one, only use Deckbox to catalog and trade cards. I would much rather have a reliable pricing structure than a silly sales function. I can sell my cards anywhere (LGS, eBay, Amazon, online card stores, etc). Deckbox is too valuable a website to me (and others) to see it become a casualty over an unnecessary function.

You missed the part where they said if they didn't add the market to monetize the site then they'd shut it down.

and the part where TCG wouldn't give them access to their API even if they took the Market functionality out.

laura wrote:While I haven't done any development on Deckbox in the past year, I have followed closely its evolution as I have to stand Sebi's moods each day as he curses at the code :) and I have advised him during the development.

Reading everything posted here just reminds me of the Diablo 3 forum posts back when they launched (eg. "They broke Diablo", "this sucks", etc.) but I can't say I'm very surprised. As a former MtG player myself, I admit the amazon prices are not close to an ideal solution.

To address some of the questions raised here, as it seems that some of you don't see the big picture.

- Deckbox is not a big company (3 people)
- the ads we had didn't support the tiny company
- donations wouldn't have been enough to support it either
- we have taken into consideration adding premium-like features, but that would have been conflicting with Wizards of the Coast and that's not a company we want to be arguing with
- we have considered many other monetisation possibilities
- the marketplace was chosen as a solution for monetisation because it makes sense and fits in the whole logic of Deckbox
- yes, we expected TcgPlayer to not be happy, but we didn't expected them to be unhappy so soon :-)

I am not trying to get your sympathy or pity, I am simply explaining why proper market research wasn't done, why we chose to add the martketplace and why we added the Amazon prices. I understand this ruins some people's trades at the moment and we are in a less than comfortable place right now, but as mentioned before, it is not a permanent solution.

So please, bear with us, we understand and we are working on it :)

I hope that's as far as the Diablo 3 analogy goes, as that was the biggest disappointment in video game history I've ever experienced. I'm more than capable of updating my own card inventory and handling trades without any accurate pricing information, so I feel I'm probably less invested in this site than some other responders here. However, I do sincerely hope Deckbox can manage this problem well and thrive in the future. This has been the best site for collection management and trading that I've found and I'd like to continue using it.

What about http://classic.magictraders.com/pricelists/ ?

Although that said the last update for that was in October of last year..

To start, I want to thank the Deckbox team for their development efforts. I work for a large software company out of the US, and understand and can relate to the immediate overreaction that most consumers have, regardless of how misguided, when hiccups occur. The key point, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is that the Deckbox team is providing us a free service, with an excellent ability to catalog, create, and peruse random deck ideas we create in our heads easily. More so, they have not abandoned the site. Most people/small person teams would give up after being legally "hammered" by a company like TCG, but they didn't. They are continuing to work, and we, as their end users, should have a little faith in them.

We all at some point need to realize that a team of 3 members are going to have other responsibilities outside of developing a FREE site for all of the users to enjoy. They do have bills, personal obligations, etc., that require attention, and I for one am in favor of giving them the time and breathing room to create a stable pricing solution. They are correct, the Google ads would in no way provide a suitable income that could cover and justify the endless hours it must take to manage this site. Possibly having another job, plus spending hours to manage this site and STILL manage to live an enjoyable lifestyle? People are blind if they think that's possible for free. If we take a look at whats been developed so far, and the ease of use, i think we should all look forward to the next iteration the team will provide! Perhaps they will bring an App developer online to provide us with a mobile based solution!

Congrats to the Deckbox team for what you have developed so far, and I for one, look forward to the changes and evolution to come!

tjdrake719 wrote:A bit off topic revenue wise, but a few suggestions in addition to selling:

*Subscription service - Add some additional functionality for like a dollar a month.
*Donations - Put paypal donate button on my profile page. I would be happy to support deckbox, but I don't see the option.

I would like to say that I have fully appreciated every little detail that the deckbox team has put into this site, all for free. For now yes, it seems that the prices are not working, but I have full confidence that the deckbox team will get it up and running as quickly as possible. There are a couple of points that I fully agree with that people are making as well.

1. Tjdrake and others have suggested several options to help you through this funk while the revenue stream is low. No, they would not sustain the website, but I think it would provide some relief for your team while you are working on the new pricing.
2. Several people mentioned using mtgprice as a good price reference, I agree, I have been using their site for quite some time and they are quite good.
3. As much as it pains me to say, I think the market function should be put on hold until the pricing can be figured out, but I would not get rid of it. Not only is it a revenue stream for the deckbox team, it is an excellent addition to deckbox for anyone selling/buying and doesn't harm the people who don't use it.
4. Please Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help, aside from donating 1 billion dollars (sorry I do not have)

I have full confidence in you Sebi and team, keep up the good work!

Cheers!
Byron (gnp)

rixan wrote:No corporate entity would allow a competitor to get all its hard work for free...unless you will go on record stating that you will allow any competing site to fully index your prices and use them to undercut you? :)

I hereby go on record :) stating that not only I will allow other websites to index our prices should they wish, but I will be glad for the publicity and for their respect (as that would mean they value our prices a lot).

As I have indeed respected Tcgplayer for their prices. They have a good business, I do not mean to sound overly critical of them. I was only put off by their communication and attitude on this issue.

gnp17 wrote:

tjdrake719 wrote:A bit off topic revenue wise, but a few suggestions in addition to selling:

*Subscription service - Add some additional functionality for like a dollar a month.
*Donations - Put paypal donate button on my profile page. I would be happy to support deckbox, but I don't see the option.

I would like to say that I have fully appreciated every little detail that the deckbox team has put into this site, all for free. For now yes, it seems that the prices are not working, but I have full confidence that the deckbox team will get it up and running as quickly as possible. There are a couple of points that I fully agree with that people are making as well.

1. Tjdrake and others have suggested several options to help you through this funk while the revenue stream is low. No, they would not sustain the website, but I think it would provide some relief for your team while you are working on the new pricing.
2. Several people mentioned using mtgprice as a good price reference, I agree, I have been using their site for quite some time and they are quite good.
3. As much as it pains me to say, I think the market function should be put on hold until the pricing can be figured out, but I would not get rid of it. Not only is it a revenue stream for the deckbox team, it is an excellent addition to deckbox for anyone selling/buying and doesn't harm the people who don't use it.
4. Please Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help, aside from donating 1 billion dollars (sorry I do not have)

I have full confidence in you Sebi and team, keep up the good work!

Cheers!
Byron (gnp)

I whole heartedly agree to this.

Helios52 wrote:No, a valid reaction is " Im going to hold off trading/selling for the moment until this gets fixed to an acceptable level". Saying the site is "nearly unusable" is overreactive to the everything else deckbox does that those MANY other forums do not.

Young people (especially those between ages 2-26) are over-reactive naturally. They believe (knowingly or not) that being loud and bombastic will yield 'traffic' their way. With attention comes fame, with fame comes money. It is a very short/brief business model but applicable for temporary gains. After all people are corporations (if we inverse the legal ruling that corporations are people), people are money. People no longer equals a person. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." This is a direct result of the expansion and proliferation of media. As Gramsci would say one can not separate people from their culture.

First of all, thank you DeckBox team for creating this wonderful playground of trading possibilities. Without it, i'm not so sure I would have made it through job corp (Stuck on a center in the middle of Kentucky with 0 FNMs or shops within 40 miles!) I hope the issue is fixed soon. I guess I don't have very much useful input on the situation as I am fairly ignorant of anything lawful and I'm nowhere savy enough with coding to be of any use but I believe that SOMEONE out there will find a way.

To address the question of "If the prices don't work, why not just use another site that does?" Well at the risk of sounding like an ass (I certainly don't mean to but I want to be direct here)

*Why not indeed? No one is stopping those who wish to go but consider this:

A) This site is the most user friendly of any trading sites out there and not only that but the amount of organization you can do with your catalogue of cards here is the best i've ever seen.

B) Where else will you find a more dedicated staff that takes time to actually hop on the forums and address their users so directly? Does that not in itself speak to the community we have here? Are people seriously going to give up that community over a major hiccup?

Just Food for though, nothing more or less.

-VampireArmy Aka Andrew