126

(14 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

I think the micah trade can be ignored, although it clearly did inform the decision to give fairportmagic negative feedback in this case. I think the real sufficient cause for punishing fairportmagic was because after he was told that it was against the rules to post a BTR as quickly as he did his response was something like "yeah but I did it anyways because I still think this guy is sketchy." That indicates a willful disregard for the rules and I think that punishment is fair.

Back to the main point. So fairpoint see’s Micah doesn’t pay anything. He gets a couple bucks and a scuffed/scratched JMTS when he really wanted a minty one. He isn’t happy. So he vents on the internet. Should he have kept his words to himself and not posted again? Probably. Was his anger understandable? To me it was. He sees the situation as someone just got away with a bad trade and will suffer no consequences. You got upset in return because you tried to resolve this to the best of your ability by still taking the loss, and to your POV he is ungrateful. So your annoyed with this guy, then a couple days later he posts a BTR because he is nervous and impatient with a new user about a trade. You think “what is it with this guy he’s a pain in the ass he needs a lesson to knock it off” or something like that. Fairpoint is thinking “god I’m going to get ripped off again why do I keep having problems with traders on this site!” so he posts a BTR early.

You're missing a crucial element (edit: okay, you bring this up later in the discussion), which sebi has brought up and which I noted in the thread was alarming - that after sebi had rendered his decision, fairportmagic openly talked about trying to get a Paypal refund anyways. Trying to skirt the consequences of an admin decision like that should definitely be against the rules, and people should know better than to think it's okay. fairportmagic may be rightly annoyed with his trade partner, but a neutral third party couldn't determine micah's guilt and part of using the BTR system is that you have to be willing to submit to the decisions of that third party, whether you feel annoyed by it or not.

Furthermore, fairportmagic's attitude was pretty antagonistic throughout, implying that the decision should go his way because he had more karma, basically accusing micah of marking his cards (he backed off of this), not accepting a refund, etc.

And I think it's fair to make note of a user's shitty/antagonistic attitude in one dispute and use that as part of how you render a decision in another. It doesn't mean you're punishing him for the first instance of bad behavior, but that you're just using what you've learned about the user to better-understand what's going on in the next dispute.

I don't think all of these issues need to be mixed together. How the fairportmagic/micah trade should have been resolved (an interesting issue in its own right) can be discussed separately from how his dispute with M Lee should have been handled.

127

(14 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

Yeah, maybe I'm changing my mind on this. The overwritten feedback isn't actually putting words in the other trader's mouth and explicitly says that it is coming from the site admins. It does fulfill the purpose of the feedback system in warning other traders about the user. iirc from following the case the positive feedback *was* left after the BTR was closed, though.

At the least, though, if the idea is that the admins will leave negative feedback when a BTR is filed in willful disregard for the site's rules... then sebi should've just put in the negative feedback rather than saying "we're allowing you to leave negative feedback", and then overwriting the feedback when it turned out to not be negative.

I guess what I dislike is that it just felt personal. There could have been a rule that generated this outcome (I don't think there is, but I could be wrong), but rather than defining such a rule it just feels like the lesson is "don't piss off the admins." I'd feel more comfortable if fairportmagic were allowed to "get away" with this one but if a rule was defined for the future that would explicate how users would be punished for abusing the BTR system.

128

(14 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

tbh I agree. I understand why sebi is annoyed at fairportmagic but I think that forcing negative feedback from users is the wrong way to address this. I can understand why it's a desirable solution here (the admins aren't ready to suspend him but short of that there's not much they can do as punishment), but I don't think it's worth undermining the feeling of due process which the functioning of the BTR system relies upon. Obviously sebi probably doesn't want to have to code in a system whereby admins can also give feedback on trades just for this case. There's a risk that it either will be or could be reasonably perceived as a kangaroo court of sorts guided by the whims and passions of the admins rather than rules and precedent.

I think letting you leave negative feedback, even if you ended up not doing so, is enough. The mere risk of being punished via negative feedback should hopefully be a deterrent to bad BTR reports.

Update: I picked up a couple more rabblemasters and I'll send them out tomorrow.

sebi wrote:
9700377 wrote:

Like, it'll pitch a card to me from someone, then when I click on the card link there are a bunch of cheaper copies listed. That seems pretty silly.

This sounds like a bug, you should only see the cheapest one being pitched. Will check it out, thank you for reporting. Do you remember which card it was by any chance?

I've seen it on multiple cards. Like, right now it's showing adventuresON's copy of Overgrown Tomb for $9.49. Well, let's check out the Overgrown Tomb page:

https://deckbox.org/mtg/Overgrown%20Tomb?printing=20609

xmitter has a copy for $9. adventuresON has an LP copy for $8.49 as well. I can understand excluding the copy from the German shipper or the LP copy, but why pitch me the $9.49 copy? Okay, if you add in shipping they're tied... but wait, if I refresh now it's offering me Ryan Clark's copy of Steam Vents:

https://deckbox.org/mtg/Steam%20Vents?printing=20627

$8.33 + $5.05 (!!) < $9.09 + $1.94

So I'm not sure what's going on here - clearing the recommendations aren't factoring in shipping costs. Best guess is that the Overgrown Tomb that isn't explicitly being flagged as English (adventureON's copy) is not being treated as identical to the one that is when it comes to generating a recommendation.

[Edit]

Okay, now it's recommending me Stomping Grounds from boosterdraft at $8. But not only is boosterdraft an international seller, but Gund Wehsling is also selling a copy at $6.81. Never mind that the shipping is insane on it, that didn't seem to factor in with Steam Vents..

I'm not sure what the logic is behind what cards/sellers are being promoted on the front page. Like, it'll pitch a card to me from someone, then when I click on the card link there are a bunch of cheaper copies listed. That seems pretty silly.

All right, I'll call around today and see what I can string together. No promises, but I'll try.

Okay, I have a trade right now where I'm going to send out my Goblin Rabblemasters:

http://deckbox.org/trades/250987?s=48370

Problem is, someone just bought them in an order as well:

http://deckbox.org/orders/5225

I'm really not sure what I'm supposed to do. Presumably I cancel the order, but obviously I don't think this scenario should have been able to arise to begin with: If you have an accepted trade involving a card, that card should *not* be for sale.

Obviously the problem is that cards aren't removed from your tradelist until you actually mark them as shipped. I think this needs to be changed so that accepted trades have the cards automatically removed from the tradelist, but not necessarily the inventory (so that users can still throw out multiple trade proposals with the same cards without being bound to the first one that gets accepted.) I don't think there's too much downside to this. If one really wants I admit that I could be faulted here for not immediately removing the item from my tradelist once the trade was accepted, but that's not always going to be a reasonable expectation.

Is there any rule I should follow for how to handle this situation? Again, it seems like the right thing to do here is to cancel the order, but I don't want to make a bad assumption here, or open myself to receiving negative feedback (if that really was a risk, I'd just stop by my LGS and buy a couple Rabblemasters..)

134

(7 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

I had a user leave neutral feedback for me after I cancelled a card order because it was under the dollar limit I had specified. It was annoying, but I think the solution is to make it understood that neutral feedback shouldn't necessarily represent a knock against a trader, especially if it's not accompanied by an explanation.

135

(15 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

sebi wrote:

Well, our conditions page was inspired from the pretty standard I think black border condition guide

http://deckbox.org/help/card_conditions
http://www.blackborder.com/cgi-bin/cust … dition.cgi

Our categories are the same as those basically. I do agree pictures would help a lot. I do not want to take theirs, as we are not allowed, but if anyone from the community would like to submit nice scans that correspond to these conditions, I will gladly put them up on our page, and give credit.

One of the things I feel these guides lack is that there is a pretty big gap between NM and LP. Like, their LP example has white border wear all around it, while their NM has none. What if there's only a single tiny white mark on a card? LP or NM? It's difficult to say.

I think it's a fine idea (I agree that jumping between an inventory page and a trade page is annoying), but it could be difficult to implement (well, on second thought.. maybe not!) and it's not something I would consider high priority.

137

(9 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

Yep, I'm torn on this change. I have less feedback overall than a lot of people here, but on the other hand I have a number of completed sales and that probably helped me generate more sales because people would see that when they put in an order.

However, to a buyer it is admittedly unclear why you should care more about completed sales than trades. It's not as if fulfilling a sale order is very different than completing a trade. I'd be curious if anyone who's been on the buying side would have a strong reason for wanting the scores to not be combined.

Thank you!!

I'm excited for the emblem listings.

But please add the Banishing Light FNM promo before its value crashes. sad

Every week or so I look for people to trade with, and one thing I've noticed is that some of the active users that deckbox recommends to me are clearly not active traders - they haven't completed a trade in months, even though they've received many proposals. Presumably I'm not going to break this streak and I'd prefer not to be matched with this people at all. It seems useful if a search criteria could be defined so that active users who aren't actively trading wouldn't be matched with me. This really isn't an unusual occurrence.

Just a suggestion.

Just a heads-up, the FNM promo banishing light doesn't seem to have an entry yet.

Ah, you're absolutely correct. My bad. Feel free to delete this thread.

(Although perhaps one suggestion to come from this would be that maybe the low price should be generated only from the compatible sellers.)

Example: https://deckbox.org/mtg/Slaughter%20Pact?printing=2730

Right now it says that Slaughter Pact can be bought for $3.51, but the lowest of the listed prices clearly is not $3.51. What gives?

A while back I made a thread complaining about price listings showing up from users who were on vacation. Is it possible that those listings were removed from the individual card pages, but are still used to calculate the spot price Deckbox uses anyways? That's my guess.

[Edit]

Okay, this complaint was off. Mods can feel free to delete this.

144

(15 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

The most important thing for this standards to provide is consistency. We shouldn't make new categories or change their stringency if that means that, say, I can't buy a "near mint" card off of TCGPlayer and list it on here as "near mint" with reliability. Near Mint does allow some flaws and I can understand some people not liking that, but the flipside is that I like being able to reliably open a pack and just list the rares as NM without having to make sure that they have tiny flaws, as many cards can have straight out of the pack.

I guess I never really used things the old way, but I'd be surprised if it was almost as easy to update nearly 5k changes via the web interface as it would be via a dedicated spreadsheet program. But I guess you'd know better than me.

Why use the web interface for these changes? Why not download the csv file of your inventory and make the changes in a spreadsheet editor that's well-suited for the operations you have in mind, and then re-import?

I think the ability to define custom lists that can be used for various purposes (ie. searching for trade matches) is the #1 missing feature of this site. Hopefully it gets added soonish.

148

(4 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

I think the tradeoff between "sellers being happy" and "buyers being happy" isn't the right way to see this - if you favor one side by just not allowing the other to implement policies in its favor, then the "losing" side will just react by not participating on the site at whatever margins. It's unforced deadweight loss that presumably wouldn't exist otherwise. If you allow people choices, and determine the level of protection (similar to how people are allowed to mail with or without tracking, or with or without insurance, or whether someone ships first, etc. - it might suck if policies on this were forced!), then we shouldn't have to worry about what the "right" level of risk to be borne by the different parties, as they'll sort that out as part of the matching process.

What I'd like to see is terms of a (presumably) simple-to-implement system would just be a way for sellers to either pre-approve orders or safely (ie. without risking feedback penalties) refund them within some time period after purchase, if they choose to do so. I realize that the biggest issue is that this would create a less-smooth marketplace experience (you'd probably have to indicate to buyers on the market page which sellers were using this option), and maybe there would be payments issues and if lots of orders ended up being cancelled the policy might have to be revisited, but as is... yeah. My second-biggest worry after getting blown out by a spike like this is someone ordering cards that I just can't find for whatever reasons - again, if I were a professional store managing inventory that wouldn't be an excuse, but I'm not. I like the added layer of flexibility that exists in trades but not for sales.

btw, I cancelled the order and the buyer left neutral feedback, leaving me unhappy (at the least, it's misleading - it just says I cancelled the order, leaving out the fact that the order violated my rules.) The provided screenshot says I get to leave feedback on the buyer as well but I see no way of doing this. Can I get his feedback scrubbed (order #3246 for reference)? It's not negative at least, but it feels unfair to get hit with that for cancelling an order in the way I did.

[Edit]

The guy changed his feedback from neutral to negative. I'll be changing this into a BTR I guess if it stands.

[Edit 2]

Feedback is back to neutral and is blank. I can live with that.

149

(4 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

When I go to a store, I expect that if a card in the case is marked at $20, they will sell it to me for $20.  I will walk away if they then say "wait a sec, let me check this price" and jack it up to whatever the internet says they might be able to sell it to someone for.

That's fair, but I'm not running a store. I can understand if the site admins want me to act as though I am, and I'll live with it, but it's not an optimal arrangement for me. (And fwiw, if you really tried to wipe out an LGS of a $20-to-$40 card after a BR change, they probably would stop you and no one would blame them.) And then I'll have to do stupid hackish things like turning on vacation mode at certain times or making shipping categories named things like "USPS with tracking ONLY FOR ORDERS OVER $10 DO NOT ORDER OTHERWISE" to get things closer to what I'd like. And I don't think anyone's going to be happy like that. It's ultimately an incomplete contracts issue - the lack of choice means that there's deadweight loss from transactions that won't occur because people are dissuaded from listing cards because of its riskiness.

It's obviously not my call, but I don't think this site's comparative advantage lies in trying to set up a storefront of semi-professional sellers a la TCGPlayer. It's cool for people like me that just have cards and like the thought of being able to inventory them online but also use those records to trade/sell cards for incremental gains. It's a more-personal exchange environment, and I'm not sure that trying to get people to eat losses in these sorts of situations with no sort of resource (other than being the predator instead of the prey) is the best policy.

150

(4 replies, posted in Site Discussion)

Okay, this thread is going to combine a couple issues that maybe should be addressed separately, but I just got a card order that concerns both, so..

1) Today someone bought a copy of Goblin Rabblemaster from me that I have listed for under a buck. That's it. On my user page, I advise people not to make orders under $10 since they're not worth it for me to fulfill. Yeah, I could raise the shipping cost for all orders or maybe make a special cost category for small orders (would this actually be enforceable, though?), but right now I'm not sure if it would be acceptable for me to cancel the order as it doesn't adhere to these guidelines - my impression is that it wouldn't be and I could get hit by negative feedback. The buyer could have easily not seen this policy before purchasing, so I don't fault him for it, but I'd like to imagine that I could enforce clearly-explicated sales policies without risking negative feedback. Is this not correct?

2) The bigger issue is that the Rabblemaster was bought because it's currently spiking due to its unexpected performance in day 1 of the PT.  tcgmid currently puts the card at $5. I updated my card prices at midnight last night. All the copies of the card on the site from American sellers have been cleared out now, perhaps all due to this same buyer. As a seller, there is literally nothing I could have done to protect myself from getting blown out like this (well, insofar as one can be blown out on a $4 loss) short of either not listing the card or just being quicker to move on this than everyone else - in which case I guess I should've cleared out everyone else myself. As is, there's always going to be one winner and a lot of losers.

I wish sellers could pre-approve incoming orders, or at least reserve the option to cancel them within 24h without negative feedback. I understand why a lot of sites like TCGPlayer don't allow this, but Deckbox is comprised of smaller-scale traders who are probably much more-adverse than normal to these kinds of losses. I didn't complain when someone ordered a $25 Nissa from me when she was spiking to $40, because there wasn't an obvious proximate cause to this spike. But this time, I'm salty because I feel like I'm being arbitraged for not paying crazy-close attention to TCGPlayer or tournament reports or relying on Deckbox's pricing - let me reiterate again that I updated the prices less than 12h before this order came in.

Okay, I do have something that can protect me here: I can set my account to vacation mode for the next few days until things are sorted out. I guess I'll do that. But I consider that a shitty option for obvious reasons.

tl;dr version:

1) Can I cancel an order that violates the sales guidelines I explicate on my profile without risking feedback? I'm guessing "no", but imo that's a problem.
2) Can we please have some seller features that allow sellers to protect themselves from being arbitraged on price spikes, eg. having seller options so that you can approve orders before they're processed, or have a time window to refund orders without risking negative feedback? Not having these makes selling on Deckbox unnecessarily risky imo.

As is, I'll fill the order I got but in the future I'll be setting my account to vacation mode around PT events and banlist announcements, I guess.